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Tractiune Integrala - best off ?

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87 replies to this topic

Poll: Cel mai bun sistem "4x4" ? (253 member(s) have cast votes)

Cel mai bun sistem "4x4" ?

  1. AWD (70 votes [27.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.67%

  2. X-Drive (57 votes [22.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.53%

  3. Quattro (87 votes [34.39%])

    Percentage of vote: 34.39%

  4. 4Matic (12 votes [4.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.74%

  5. Quadra-Drive (8 votes [3.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.16%

  6. Altul (19 votes [7.51%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.51%

Cea mai buna tractiune ?

  1. Fata (majoritar) (46 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

  2. Spate (majoritar) (67 votes [26.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.48%

  3. 50 - 50 (permanent) (140 votes [55.34%])

    Percentage of vote: 55.34%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1
cata.s

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Acest thread nu e pt. ca sa ne lamurim ce fel de tractiune merita respectul automobilistilor ca stim; INTEGRALA. Problema e: care tractiune integrala e mai eficienta? Si de ce?

scurta prezentare:

quattro = Audi > integrala permanenta > se presupune cel mai performant sistem de tractiune integrala ....

4Matic = Mercedes > 40%fata, 60% spate > in conditii extreme o ia naiba .... da putere % si pe o singura roata .....

XDrive = BMW > 35% fata, 65% spate > poate da pana la 100% forta pe o punte ...

4Motion = Volkswagen > 50% cu 50% > punte fata sau cea spate (in functie de nevoi) poate primii pana la 67% din puterea motorului + ca daca are EDL imparte forta si pe laterale ......

trebuia sa mai mentionez si de sistemul all wheel drive de la Volvo si Subaru

#2
vladut_v

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In general, toate aceste sisteme de tractiune permanente sunt foarte "inteligente" si autoadaptive in fuctie de solicitarile reale. Din punct de vedere al traditiei si inovatiilor introduse, port un respect deosebit sistemului quattro de pe Audi ... cu al sau inovator Q7 ... cum spune si campania publicitara: " ... de 25 de ani cream sisteme quattro pentru masini, acum am creat o masina pentru sistemul quattro ..."

Am o intrebare: Care este diferenta la WV, dintre sistemul 4Motion si cel Syncro ?

Numai bine !

#3
GeorgeB

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ai uitat : AWD de la subaru

#4
SnowWhit3

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Din cate stiu eu, poate ma insel:
quattro e fata in conditii normale si cupleaza spatele la nevoie si e 100% variabilitate, Xdrive e 38% fata, 62% spate invariabil  deci in caz ca nu ai aderenta pe spate tot nu pleci de pe loc :D

:peacefingers:

#5
cata.s

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eu stiu ca 4Motion e sistem 4x4 integral permanent pe cand syncro e cu diferential, adica trage puntea fata si la nevoie se imparte puterea cu puntea spate

#6
romaximusro

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uite ce spune un user de pe autoshow despre 4motion , quattro (numit sandumbogdan)


Quote

ai quatro, 4motion, 4x4 sunt denumirile comerciale de pe audi, VW, skoda
tehnica folosita (la vag) tine de modul de amplasare al motorului, la cele longitudinale e torsen, mecanic, permanent, default 50-50 si se poate modifica pana la 70-30 sau 30-70 iar pe sasiurile cu motorul transversal se pun haldex, electronic, intra numai la nevoie (dar f. repede - vezi abs, esp), default este 100-0 si se poate duce pana la 100-0 sau 0-100

Torsen normally drives 50:50 and can split torque up to 70:30 either front or back. Haldex normally runs 99:1 F:R but can transfer up to 1:99 F:R - this occurs virtually instantaneously (within 15 degress of wheel rotation) and the trigger is slip between front and rear axles. This of course occurs as soon as the car starts to turn as the front wheels turn more than the rears, so the only condition when the Haldex is all FWD is when running straight ahead. All of this is computer controlled and integrates inputes from the ESP and ABS and EBD systems. The Torsen is a purely mechanical device, and acts virtually instantaneously. It is also very expensive, but also pretty much bullet-proof.
The Haldex unit itself is a multi-plate clutch and is mounted just in front of the rear axle - assisting weight distribution.

"Sistemele de tractiune integrala se diferentiaza in predictive si reactive.
In cazul cuplajului Haldex functionarea acestuia se bazeaza pe "predictia" pe care o face controlerul cuplajului pe baza input-urilor de la senzori. (in ultima versiune de software puntea spate este "antrenata" in cazul acceleratiilor puternice - laterale si longitudinale pentru a anticipa pierderea aderentei in demaraje sau efectul subvirator in viraje).
Haldex-ul este predictiv

Torsen-ul este reactiv si "intervine" (a se citii reactioneaza) atunci cand apar diferente de viteze de rotatie intre intrare si iesire.

Avantajul Haldex-ului este ca ii poate fi modificat comportamentul din remaparea controlerului AWD. Are si o functionare mai silentioasa.
Haldex-ul permite decuplarea totala a puntii spate in cazul in care se doreste acest lucru (dynotest, derapaje controlate, frana de mana trasa, etc)

Torsenul este putin mai violent in reactii si mai zgomotos. Are si tendinta de a consuma ceva mai mult combustibil pentru ca nu lasa puntea spate "libera" in nici un caz si suplimentar daca se blocheaza frana de mana situatia devine "neplacuta". "


iar vrajitorul din orz aduce completari

Quote

Foarte discutabil. Haldex e mai ieftin. Torsen e mai scump. Automat ce e mai ieftin ar trebui sa fie mai raspindit, dar awd nu e o tehnologie foarte raspindita asa ca cine stie. Audi, marca premium, de la A4 in sus are torsen, dar A3 are haldex (nu e o legatura strinsa intre numele comercial si tehnologia din spate). VW cu 4motion e numai haldex, fiind marca normala. Torsen mai au foarte putine masini in afara de Audi. Care e mai bun si care e mai prost iarasi e discutabil, de vreme ce si Porsche a folosit o varinta mai smechera de haldex cu succes. Audi pretinde ca sistemele haldex sint mai bune decit torsen, deci foarte posibil ca fiind si mai ieftin poate si mai bun sa inlocuiasca torsen complet. Mercedes 4matic care e destul de injurat e si el bazat pe ideea haldex, doar ca prost aplicata .

Mai e o varianta, cea mai ieftina si cea mai proasta care se cheama viscous coupling care a fost folosita pe masini de genul Lamborghini Diablo si Porsche (care a inlocuit haldexul ca se micsoreze costul), masini care au fost hulite la vremea lor de presa pentru solutia aleasa. O varianta imbunatatita a viscous coupling corcit cu torsen, LSD se foloseste/s-a folosit pe Evo, Subaru, Celica, Delta integrale si in general masinile de raliu de succes, ca si pe Mitsubishi 3000GT, ceva Bugatti, etc.
Sisteme AWd foarte meseriase si deosebite mai sint pe Skyline (singurul capabil de oversteering) si Honda.


#7
SCANIA FREAK

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Am votat Quattro,datorita traditiei sale de 25 de ani!!! :peacefingers:  ;)

#8
Notorious

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X-drive (a nu se confunda cu vechiul sistem X de la bmw)  permite 100% pe o osie si e un sistem 4x4 permanent.  E predictiv.  E unul din putinele sisteme care permit plecarea(miscarea) masinii cu o singura roata aderenta. Si unele si altele(sistemele) au plusuri si minusuri.

Edited by Notorious, 25 November 2005 - 18:31.


#9
akeem

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Hm...poate asta nou, ca ala vechi n-a trecut testul rolelor cu puntea din spate.

#10
GeorgeB

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AWD anyone ?

#11
SCANIA FREAK

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 GeorgeB, on Nov 28 2005, 12:11, said:

AWD anyone ?


        E slab dom'le!!! :lol:  :lol:  :coolspeak: (joking)

#12
cata.s

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Stiati cine a inventat primul sistem 4WD?

Ferdinand Porsche in 1900   :first:

#13
SCANIA FREAK

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Good ol' Feri!!! :coolspeak:  :lol:

#14
GeorgeB

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o sa preiau ceva ce au scris niste colegi pe un alt forum , sper sa fie educativ :D

"f1anatic" said:

Probabil este cazul sa intram pe teritoriul STi ca sa il convingem pe Valentin de superioritatea sistemului AUDI.

Pai sa vedem...tu consideri ca acel viscocuplaj ca fiind dependent de un lichid siliconic care trebuie sa se incalzeasca pt. a putea fi transferata puterea de pe o punte pe alta.  Hmmm...deci sa intzeleg ca DCCD (Driver Controlled Center Differential) de pe Subaru Impreza WRX STi este practic o rezistentza care incalzeste fluidul acela citeva grade incit...soferul poate regla raportul cuplului pe punte in voie.  M-ai dat gata.  A-pro-pos...Subaru STi amintit are cutie manuala.  

Uite mult apreciatule...citeste tu aici...si pe urma spune in continuare despre quatro.  Ah...comparam cel mai performant Subaru cu cel mai fraier AUDI...Ah...comparam aia cu ailalta...Ah...ca ala de pe A4 nu e de ultima generatzie...Ah...ca ar trebui sa il comparam de pe S4 si RS4 cu Legacy (uitaram ca e vorba de alt fel de masina si altzi bani).  UITE ASTA ESTE CEL MAI PERFORMANT SUBARU !  Si spunemi unde zice de visco cuplajul lui peste.  Pe masina cu cutie manuala...SI SPER CA VEI CITI TOT !  Nu cred ca nu potzi intzelege...cred ca nu vrei sa intzelegi...

Si da...quattro are avantajul asupra visco-coupling prin faptul ca nu afecteaza vehicle stability prgm.  Visco-coupling permite trasnferul lateral mai bun.  Dar acum...lasind visco-cuplul deoparte...cu ce e mai performant quattro de pe RS-14 fatza de STi DCCD & co. ?

http://www.canadiand...s/jk/031210.htm

Quote

Subaru brings rally car technology to the street
by Jim Kerr
Photos by Grant Yoxon

Some of the technology that makes Subaru all wheel drive vehicles handle so well comes from their many years of World Rally Car experience. Subaru has excelled in this form of racing and recently offered some of their hot technology to us in the form of the WRX STi. This rally-inspired street car features a 300 horsepower intercooled, turbocharged four cylinder engine, a six speed manual transmission and dramatic styling. Another important feature of this quick and fun to drive sports car is its DCCD driveline.

DCCD stands for Driver Controlled Centre Differential. The WRX STi used three differentials. The front axle is a cam type limited slip unit. The rear axle differential is a mechanical limited slip unit, and the third differential is located at the rear of the manual transmission and can be controlled by the driver. This centre differential can automatically vary the ratio of the power split between the front and the rear axles, or the split can be set by the driver with a switch on the console.

Subaru WRX STi

Subaru WRX STi

Subaru WRX STi

Subaru WRX STi

Subaru WRX STi

Subaru WRX STi
Click image to enlarge
With the DCCD selector switch set in Auto mode, the torque split between the front and rear is 65% front and 35% rear. This torque split ratio is a result of the gear ratio of the planetary gear set that makes up the centre differential. Because of the torque split in the differential and the balance of the car, the Subaru WRX STi tends to oversteer. According to Subaru, this car was "built for people who want to drive".

A manual selector switch on the console enables the driver to control the torque split. Set it at 100% and the 100 indicator on the dash display lights up. This represents fully locked which is actually a 50/50 torque split in the centre differential. Several other torque splits can be selected for different road conditions or car balance conditions the driver wishes, all the way down to 0% or completely unlocked.

Inside the DCCD housing, two cam plates with ramps between them and small balls in the ramps are located at the rear of the differential. The Subaru system energizes a computer-controlled magnetic clutch to vary the torque split. When the coil assembly is energized, one of the cam plates is slowed, causing the balls to roll up the ramps, forcing the planetary gear set forward. A multi-plate limited-slip clutch at the front end of the planetary gear set is forced together by the end thrust inside the unit, locking the parts of the planetary gear set together. With the planetary gear set locked, the torque split is 50% to the front and 50% to the rear.

Several inputs enable the computer to calculate the amount of torque split desired and apply the clutch. The main sensor is a lateral G sensor located in the centre of the car. Lateral acceleration or the cornering force of the car is balanced by varying the torque split. The throttle position is also monitored so the differential can be locked during acceleration. The stop light switch sends a signal to unlock the differential so the four channel ABS braking is optimized.

A parking brake switch signals the computer to unlock the differential, enabling drivers to do "handbrake turns" during rally-type driving. Finally, a rear differential temperature sensor is used so that if the rear differential overheats, the centre differential will unlock. During extended periods of driving aggressively with the centre differential locked, the load on the drivetrain can cause differentials to overheat, so the rear axle temperature is monitored as a safety factor.

Let's look at how the system responds automatically if the driver is aggressively navigating a hairpin corner. As the car enters the corner, the brakes are applied and the differential unlocks for optimum braking with the ABS system. As the driver turns into the corner, the differential provides a 65/35% front to rear torque split for optimum traction and continues to vary the torque split until the gripping point of the corner is reached. Then the differential locks up in response to throttle opening for straight line stability and acceleration.

DCCD is Subaru's most performance-oriented All-Wheel Drive system. It provides optimum traction, straight-line stability and enables the driver to adjust the car so it can match both the road conditions and the driver's needs. Rally inspired systems like this make the WRX STi a fun, responsive car to drive.

Jim Kerr is a master automotive mechanic and teaches automotive technology. He has been writing automotive articles for fifteen years for newspapers and magazines in Canada and the United States, and is a member of the Automotive Journalist's Association of Canada (AJAC).

Ia compara-l si pe asta cu Quattro ?  Sa vedem care pe cine "smoke".


#15
SCANIA FREAK

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Concluzie Quattro e mai bun decat AWD!!! :naughty:  :peacefingers:  :coolspeak:

#16
cata.s

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da, si totusi cel mai performant sistem 4x4 din lume ramane cel detinut de Hummer deoarece are capacitatea, printr-un set de diferentiale construite de AM General Hummer military vehicle, sa-si miste rotile la viteze diferite;

a se face diferenta: nu e vorba de transfer de putere de la o punte la alta ci pur si simplu poate sa-si invarta rotile la viteze diferite una fata de cealalta.

la nevoie  :D

#17
GeorgeB

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 SCANIA FREAK, on Nov 30 2005, 20:58, said:

Concluzie Quattro e mai bun decat AWD!!! :naughty:  :peacefingers:  :coolspeak:
eu nu vad asa lucrurile  :rolleyes:

 SCANIA FREAK, on Nov 30 2005, 20:58, said:

Concluzie Quattro e mai bun decat AWD!!! :naughty:  :peacefingers:  :coolspeak:
eu nu vad asa lucrurile  :rolleyes:

#18
SCANIA FREAK

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E firesc ai Subaru!!! :coolspeak:  :lol:

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