Civilizatie si societate in Islamul si Crestinatatea traditionale

lefcadio, on 25 august 2016 - 10:56, said:

Stiu cat de prost sunt tratate femeile in islam......la fel cum erau tratate cu inferioritate si femeile de rand in Europa medievala in general, fiind considerate doar ca fatatoare de copii  si  puse doar la cratita (rareori, cu mici exceptii se mai emancipau)

Mai ai argumente din astea subiective?

Edited by lotharragnar, 25 August 2016 - 11:16.

lotharragnar, on 25 august 2016 - 11:14, said:

In mod ironic un avantaj esential al crestinismului a fost si este conditia femeii, mult superioara celei gasite in alte religii. In mod practic asta a determinat un procentaj majoritar al femeilor in biserica crestina primara.

AMDG, on 25 august 2016 - 13:19, said:

Am  niste dubiii...

Un bogatas crestin salta o fata de pe mosie, o lua la el la curte ... si cand o lasa bortoasa o trimitea acasa cu burta la gura . Si bogatsului nici ca ii pasa de copil
Insa muslmanu trebuia sa o tina! Sa ii creasca copilul (adica sa isi creasca copilul). Scalav cumprata de la targ si bagata in harem devena bburc cu drepturi daca nastea un copil ...

Si as mai observa ca crestinsimul preia sa zicem o biarerie greco-romana : familia monogama. Adica nu ai dreptul la 4 -200 de sotii.

Aici sunt si neste cestii mai vechi decat religiile. Sa zic asa e o cesteo culturala mai veche decat crestinismul sau islamismul (ca si la islamici sunt difernte. Nu in toate tarile se poarta femeia loz in plic .. in unele zone ... doar feregea si aia cam voaleta (adica mia mult ascunde ridurile !) Dar aicfi este vorba si de cestii mai vechi .... adica statul femeii de dinainte de misulmanism. A mai ai exceptia tuarega - barbatii poatea val pe fata.. femeile iau hotararile ! Pesemneca asa era si iainte sa se nasca mahomed!

Ghita_Bizonu, on 25 august 2016 - 13:41, said:

Hai sa o luam pe indelete - in primul rand ma referea la motivele pentru care crestinismul a trecut peste persecutiile evreilor si paganilor, un motiv fiind conditia femeii in comparatie cu altii, iar in al doilea rand un crestin nu se regaseste in scenariul de mai sus. Nu ma vezi pe mine zicand ca toti ateii au fost ca Pol Pot

Ghita_Bizonu, on 25 august 2016 - 13:41, said:

Musulmanul putea ( si o face practic azi ) sa o bata si sa o omoare, si are si suport scriptural in Coran.

Ghita_Bizonu, on 25 august 2016 - 13:41, said:

As mai observa ca se interzice recasatorirea sau avortul, taman pe dos fata de paganii greco-romani.

lotharragnar, on 25 august 2016 - 11:14, said:

Dar tu, tampenii pseudodocte mai scoti multe?
Ca esti specializat pe imbecilitati la foc automat.
Singurul motiv pentru car enu te pun pe ignore e ca nu pot lasa abjectii din astea fara replica. Sa nu cumva sa crezi ca ma impresionezi altfel decat prin ignoranta fudula.

Am postat destule si despre comparatiile privitor la drepturi & shit.

Ghita_Bizonu, on 25 august 2016 - 13:41, said:

Da, mare castig ca banditul care-ti ia fata o pastreaza pe veci si face cu ea pui de barbar care se intorc la vechii lor conationali sa repete procedura tatalui...
Ca sa nu mai vorbim de scosul ochilor intre femeile din harem...

Edited by lefcadio, 26 August 2016 - 08:57.

Am dat peste o discutie foarte interesanta pe un forum, despre motivul pentru care s-a islamizat Bengalul.
Pentru cine nu stie, Islamul in India s-a raspandit foarte ciudat.
Aria civilizatiei indiene cuprindea initial nu doar India cum o stim ci si Ceylonul, Bangladeshul, Pakistanul, Nepalul, chiar Afghanistanul si Asia Centrala in buna masura, mai ales in vremurile budiste ale anilor 400-600AD.
Cand a venit Islamul, a islamizat pana la granita estica a Pakistanului de azi majoritatea populatiei, ceea ce e logic ca doar acolo au lovit nu doar arabii ci si alti vectori ai Islamului precum persii, turcii, tatarii etc.
Problema e ca Islamul a mai format o majoritate si-n delta Gangelui, in Bengal, actualul Bangladesh. Adica in celalalt capat.
In restul Indiei, musulmanii sunt asa la 10-20%, nu mai mult.
Drept care unii s-au intrebat care a fost motivul.
Discutia in chestiune a lamurit asta destul de bine.
Motivul e "cultura de frontiera".
Din cate se pare, delta Gangelui era destul de primitiva la 1500.
Zona Bengalului de vest, azi in continuare indiana, era dens populata si ocupata de triburi ariene inca din vremurile vedice, si apar in listele tribale din vremurile alea.
In plus, pe acolo trecea pe atunci bratul principal al Gangelui.
In schimb restul deltei era o mlastina destul de primitiva si slab populata, tribala in majoritate, neintegrata hinduismului.
Doar prin mijlocul ei se implantase niste budism.
Apoi a venit Islamul.
Care Islam, in general, a dat in India peste o cultura mai sofisticata decat a lui. Nu punem aici triburile de prin coclaurii Orissei dar vorbim in general.
Ei, odata ajuns in Bengal, n-a putut islamiza zona vestica, deja civilizata demult. N-a putut sparge tiparul ethosului local. Ca dovada ca zona a ramas la India.
Insa in rest, au venit c-o cultura superioara tribalismului local. Cat despre budism, ala contemplativ cum e, si preponderent monastic, n-a avut forta sa reziste si a patit ca-n partile de Vest.
Triburile bengaleze n-au mai trecut prin tiparul cultural-religios-institutional al hinduismului, ci din tribalism politeist simplu au sarit direct la cadrul institutional islamic, si au primit si influenta lui religioasa pentru care n-au avut un raspuns adecvat.
De unde islamizarea zonei.
In plus, geografia a tinut cu ei, Gangele si-a schimbat cursul si s-a mutat prin mijlocul zonei aflata in curs de islamizare. Ceea ce a dezvoltat mult comertul si a facilitat implantarea de noi veniti dinspre vest.
Prin urmare, acolo islamizarea a coincis cu intrarea zonei din preistorie in Istorie, si cu colonizarea agricola.
La care s-a adaugat, ca la anatolienii bizantini, o islamizare mult ajutata de dervisii Sufi, care initial au venit cu un Islam mult mai relativ si mai usor de digerat.
De aici, existenta Bangladeshului in ziua de azi.

Edited by lefcadio, 15 September 2016 - 15:52.

Te deprimi cand urmaresti discutii pe net despre Islam si decaderea lui.
Toti blameaza Cruciadele/reconquista si mongolii.
Mongolii, se mai justifica, desi decaderea incepuse deja.
Dar cruciadele, plm...
Exact in acelasi moment in care cruciatii cucereau cele 70-80.000kmp sirieni, si max un milion de insi, musulmanii devastau cele 700.000kmp si 12 milioane crestini ai Anatoliei!
Nimeni n-are nici macar cea mai mica idee de asta.
Iti vine sa versi.
Si reconquista spaniola n-a fost o recuperare a unei CUCERIRI?

Pun asta si aici si la Civilizatie europeana, ca e prea interesant:
In a doua jumatate a secolului 15, Venetia exporta spre Damasc 11.000 de ochelari pe an.
Pe vremea aia, ochelarii erau marfuri destul de high-tech.
Asta cu dedicatie la unii care vad suprematii islamice pana-n secolul 17...

Articol al unui sarb despre ocupatia otomana.
https://mightynose.w...comment-page-1/

E estimat ca expansiunea islamului a produs pana acum un miliard de victime.

Let that sink in real good.

gigifenomen, on 17 octombrie 2016 - 09:07, said:

de fapt rolul mongolilor a fost benefic si formidabil pentru intreaga umanitate.
Mongolii au creat un mediu in care tarile Europei comunicau cu cele ale Orientului Apropiat si cu cele ale Asiei pacifice.
Mongolii au amestecat civilizatiile si au creat momentum,
ce a scos civilizatia umana din inertie
Ei au dat acel imbold ce a dus la revolutia tehnologica,
fenomen nemaintalnit inainte de umanitate.

Iar fara mongoli statele nord-dunarene, Ungro-Vlahia si Moldo-Vlahia n-ar fi existat niciodata.

Asimilarea mongolilor de arabi, turci si hindusi a mutat centrul civilizatiei mondiale in occidentul Europei.

a3ds, on 21 decembrie 2016 - 18:04, said:

exact, islamul a produs cele 2 razboaie mondiale.

avenirv, on 22 decembrie 2016 - 14:53, said:

Hitler admira Islamul, dar ma rog...
Wilhelm 2 se gandea la o alianta mai larga cu Islamul pana sa opteze pentru ideea si mai proasta a contaminarii Rusiei cu bolsevism.
WW1-2 au fost produse de acelasi monism filozofic care exista si-n Islam, o idee fixa si simplista considerata solutia la tot si toate, combinata cu dorinta de a face tabula rasa din ce a fost inainte.

[ https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/PoqW3bd6FfE?feature=oembed - Pentru incarcare in pagina (embed) Click aici ]

fane_only, on 21 decembrie 2016 - 18:55, said:

No serios
Dacă nu treceam pe lângă un McDonald's în weekend, nu mai mâncam niciodată
Opream la un China buffet, poate era și mai bine

grrrrr, on 21 decembrie 2016 - 13:02, said:

Din păcate virusat de extremismul sârbesc.
Altfel, e drept, ei au suferit mult mai mult decât noi de pe seama turcilor.

Merita reprodusa in totalitate:
Muslim Claims of Accomplishment
By: Peter BetBasoo
ChristiansOfIraq.com | Friday, January 04, 2008

EDITOR'S NOTE: There is great need for setting the record straight on the history of the Middle East. The revisionism of the last few years will lead Western Civilization into bondage. The following letter by Assyrian scholar Peter BetBasoo is a very important step in the right direction. It was sent by Assyrian scholar Peter BetBasoo to Carly Fiorina, CEO of Hewlett Packard Corporation, in response to a speech she presented in Minneapolis on September 26, 2001. It is reprinted by permission. Please read and pass it on to others.

Dear Madame Fiorina:
It is with great interest that I read your speech delivered on September 26, 2001, titled "Technology, Business and Our way of Life: What's Next" [sic]. I was particularly interested in the story you told at the end of your speech, about the Arab/Muslim civilization. As an Assyrian, a non-Arab, Christian native of the Middle East, whose ancestors reach back to 5000 B.C., I wish to clarify some points you made in this little story, and to alert you to the dangers of unwittingly being drawn into the Arabist/Islamist ideology, which seeks to assimilate all cultures and religions into the Arab/Islamic fold.
I know you are a very busy woman, but please find ten minutes to read what follows, as it is a perspective that you will not likely get from anywhere else. I will answer some of the specific points you made in your speech, then conclude with a brief perspective on this Arabist/Islamist ideology.

Arabs and Muslims appeared on the world scene in 630 A.D., when the armies of Muhammad began their conquest of the Middle East. We should be very clear that this was a military conquest, not a missionary enterprise, and through the use of force, authorized by a declaration of a Jihad against infidels, Arabs/Muslims were able to forcibly convert and assimilate non-Arabs and non-Muslims into their fold. Very few indigenous communities of the Middle East survived this - primarily Assyrians, Jews, Armenians and Coptics (of Egypt).
Having conquered the Middle East, Arabs placed these communities under a Dhimmi (see the book DHIMMI, by Bat Ye'Or) system of governance, where the communities were allowed to rule themselves as religious minorities (Christians, Jews and Zoroastrian). These communities had to pay a tax (called a Jizzya in Arabic) that was, in effect, a penalty for being non-Muslim, and that was typically 80% in times of tolerance and up to 150% in times of oppression. This tax forced many of these communities to convert to Islam, as it was designed to do.
You state, "its architects designed buildings that defied gravity." I am not sure what you are referring to, but if you are referring to domes and arches, the fundamental architectural breakthrough of using a parabolic shape instead of a spherical shape for these structures was made by the Assyrians more than 1300 years earlier, as evidenced by their archaeological record.
You state,
"its mathematicians created the algebra and algorithms that would enable the building of computers, and the creation of encryption."
The fundamental basis of modern mathematics had been laid down not hundreds but thousands of years before by Assyrians and Babylonians, who already knew of the concept of zero, of the Pythagorean Theorem, and of many, many other developments expropriated by Arabs/Muslims (see HISTORY OF BABYLONIAN MATHEMATICS by Otto E. Neugebauer).
You state,
"its doctors examined the human body, and found new cures for disease."
The overwhelming majority of these doctors (99%) were Assyrians. In the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries Assyrians began a systematic translation of the Greek body of knowledge into Assyrian. At first, they concentrated on the religious works but then quickly moved to science, philosophy and medicine. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Galen, and many others were translated into Assyrian, and from Assyrian into Arabic. It is these Arabic translations which the Moors brought with them into Spain, and which the Spaniards translated into Latin and spread throughout Europe, thus igniting the European Renaissance.
By the sixth century A.D., Assyrians had begun exporting back to Byzantia their own works on science, philosophy and medicine. In the field of medicine, the Bakhteesho Assyrian family produced nine generations of physicians, and founded the great medical school at Gundeshapur (Iran). Also in the area of medicine, (the Assyrian) Hunayn ibn-Ishaq's textbook on ophthalmology, written in 950 A.D., remained the authoritative source on the subject until 1800 A.D.
In the area of philosophy, the Assyrian philosopher Job of Edessa developed a physical theory of the universe, in the Assyrian language, that rivaled Aristotle's theory, and that sought to replace matter with forces (a theory that anticipated some ideas in quantum mechanics, such as the spontaneous creation and destruction of matter that occurs in the quantum vacuum).
One of the greatest Assyrian achievements of the fourth century was the founding of the first university in the world, the School of Nisibis, which had three departments, theology, philosophy and medicine, and which became a magnet and center of intellectual development in the Middle East. The statutes of the School of Nisibis, which have been preserved, later became the model upon which the first Italian university was based (see THE STATUTES OF THE SCHOOL OF NISIBIS by Arthur Voobus).
When Arabs and Islam swept through the Middle East in 630 A.D., they encountered 600 years of Assyrian Christian civilization, with a rich heritage, a highly developed culture, and advanced learning institutions. It is this civilization that became the foundation of the Arab civilization.
You state,
"Its astronomers looked into the heavens, named the stars, and paved the way for space travel and exploration."
This is a bit melodramatic. In fact, the astronomers you refer to were not Arabs but Chaldeans and Babylonians (of present day south-Iraq), who for millennia were known as astronomers and astrologers, and who were forcibly Arabized and Islamized - so rapidly that by 750 A.D. they had disappeared completely.
You state,
"its writers created thousands of stories. Stories of courage, romance and magic. Its poets wrote of love, when others before them were too steeped in fear to think of such things."
There is very little literature in the Arabic language that comes from this period you are referring to (the Koran is the only significant piece of literature), whereas the literary output of the Assyrians and Jews was vast. The third largest corpus of Christian writing, after Latin and Greek, is by the Assyrians in the Assyrian language (also called Syriac).
You state,
"when other nations were afraid of ideas, this civilization thrived on them, and kept them alive. When censors threatened to wipe out knowledge from past civilizations, this civilization kept the knowledge alive, and passed it on to others."
This is a very important issue you raise, and it goes to the heart of the matter of what Arab/Islamic civilization represents. I reviewed a book titled HOW GREEK SCIENCE PASSED TO THE ARABS, in which author De Lacy O'Leary lists the significant translators and interpreters of Greek science. Of the 22 scholars listed, 20 were Assyrians, one was Persian and one an Arab. I state at the end of my review:
"The salient conclusion which can be drawn from O'Leary's book is that Assyrians played a significant role in the shaping of the Islamic world via the Greek corpus of knowledge. If this is so, one must then ask the question, what happened to the Christian communities which made them lose this great intellectual enterprise they had established? One can ask this same question of the Arabs. Sadly, O'Leary's book does not answer this question, and we must look elsewhere for the answer."
I did not answer this question I posed in the review because it was not the place to answer it, but the answer is very clear, the Christian Assyrian community was drained of its population through forced conversion to Islam (by the Jizzya), and once the community had dwindled below a critical threshold, it ceased producing the scholars that were the intellectual driving force of the Islamic civilization, and that is when the so called "Golden Age of Islam" came to an end (about 850 A.D.).
Islam the religion itself was significantly molded by Assyrians and Jews (see NESTORIAN INFLUENCE ON ISLAM and HAGARISM: THE MAKING OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD).
Arab/Islamic civilization is not a progressive force, it is a regressive force; it does not give impetus, it retards. The great civilization you describe was not an Arab/Muslim accomplishment, it was an Assyrian accomplishment that Arabs expropriated and subsequently lost when they drained, through the forced conversion of Assyrians to Islam, the source of the intellectual vitality that propelled it. What other Arab/Muslim civilization has risen since? What other Arab/Muslim successes can we cite?
You state,
"and perhaps we can learn a lesson from his [Suleiman] example: It was leadership based on meritocracy, not inheritance. It was leadership that harnessed the full capabilities of a very diverse population that included Christianity, Islamic, and Jewish traditions."
In fact, the Ottomans were extremely oppressive to non-Muslims. For example, young Christian boys were forcefully taken from their families, usually at the age of 8-10, and inducted into the Janissaries, (yeniceri in Turkish) where they were Islamized and made to fight for the Ottoman state. What literary, artistic or scientific achievements of the Ottomans can we point to? We can, on the other hand, point to the genocide of 750,000 Assyrians, 1.5 million Armenians and 400,000 Greeks in World War One by the Kemalist "Young Turk" government. This is the true face of Islam.
Arabs/Muslims are engaged in an explicit campaign of destruction and expropriation of cultures and communities, identities and ideas. Wherever Arab/Muslim civilization encounters a non-Arab/Muslim one, it attempts to destroy it (as the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan were destroyed, as Persepolis was destroyed by the Ayotollah Khomeini).
This is a pattern that has been recurring since the advent of Islam, 1400 years ago, and is amply substantiated by the historical record. If the "foreign" culture cannot be destroyed, then it is expropriated, and revisionist historians claim that it is and was Arab, as is the case of most of the Arab "accomplishments" you cited in your speech. For example, Arab history texts in the Middle East teach that Assyrians were Arabs, a fact that no reputable scholar would assert, and that no living Assyrian would accept. Assyrians first settled Nineveh, one of the major Assyrian cities, in 5000 B.C., which is 5630 years before Arabs came into that area. Even the word 'Arab' is an Assyrian word, meaning "Westerner" (the first written reference to Arabs was by the Assyrian King Sennacherib, 800 B.C., in which he tells of conquering the "ma'rabayeh" - Westerners. See THE MIGHT THAT WAS ASSYRIA by H. W. F. Saggs).

Even in America this Arabization policy continues. On October 27th a coalition of seven Assyrian and Maronite organizations sent an official letter to the Arab American Institute asking it to stop identifying Assyrians and Maronites as Arabs, which it had been deliberately doing.
There are minorities and nations struggling for survival in the Arab/Muslim ocean of the Middle East and Africa (Assyrians, Armenians, Coptics, Jews, southern Sudanese, Ethiopians, Nigerians...), and we must be very sensitive not to unwittingly and inadvertently support Islamic fascism and Arab Imperialism, with their attempts to wipe out all other cultures, religions and civilizations. It is incumbent upon each one of us to do our homework and research when making statements and speeches about these sensitive matters.
I hope you found this information enlightening. You may contact me at [email protected] for further questions.
Thank you for your consideration.
Peter BetBasoo is an Assyrian from Iraq and the co-founder and director of the Assyrian International News Agency

Edited by grrrrr, 02 March 2017 - 12:52.

Textul e de absolut ridicol. E un fel de "dacii/ungurii/you-name-it - creatorii civilizatiei mondiale". In integralitate exagereaza, iar pe alocuri minte.

grrrrr, on 02 martie 2017 - 12:48, said:

Asa de rapid au disparut incat marea majoritate a stelelor cu nume (nu cu indicativ alfanumeric) au in prezent nume arabe. Astronomi vorbesc de 80% nume arabe. Urmatoarea limba e greaca, cu o pondere sub 5%. Pentru ca privilegiul denumirii ii revine celui care a facut descoperirea.
https://en.wikipedia...abic_star_names
https://en.wikipedia...l_Islamic_world

ain, on 06 martie 2017 - 11:09, said:

Limbile siriaca si asiriana nu-s inrudite cu araba?
Araba n-a fost influentata de ele inainte de a detine suprematia?
De unde stim exact ca e denumire araba si nu siriaca?
De asemenea, daca io is inventator si traiesc printre americani, daca descopar ceva ii dau un nume american indiferent de originea mea, nu?
Descoperitorii puteau fi non-musulmani si denumirile sa fie totusi arabe.

Oricum, lauda aia islamofila libidinos-grotesca a corporatistei merita un raspuns pe masura.

Edited by grrrrr, 06 March 2017 - 11:34.