Matia Corvin era român?

 von_Pallavicini, on 07 septembrie 2013 - 14:09, said:

Cumanii erau ciuciurii ?

 von_Pallavicini, on 07 septembrie 2013 - 14:09, said:

Si Iancu si Matia au moace dinarice deci nu prea au cum fi asiatici.

 searcher-star, on 10 septembrie 2013 - 10:10, said:

Ce înseamnă moacă dinarică ?

 paradigmatic, on 10 septembrie 2013 - 10:49, said:

Adica din sub-subrasa dinarica.
Intre albi ai nordici, mediteraneni si alpinoizi.
Fiecare are mai multe varietati.
Grosso modo alpinoizii sunt alpini si dinarici, la care unii adauga alte soiuri si sub-soiuri, dar astea-s cele mai uzual utilizate.
Nordicii is in nord desigur, si-n Estul slav si la noi la moldoveni.
Mediteranenii pe litoralul de sud al Mediteranei si pe cel de vest si nordvest al Negrei.
Alpinoizii sunt intre, in general in zonele mai inalte.

Pardon am vrut sa zic mediteraneni pe ambele litorale de sud si de nord ale marii respective.
Mai exista mediteraneni si-n arhipelagul britanic, varietati locale.

Edited by searcher-star, 10 September 2013 - 15:39.

În opinia ta Matia Corvin nu avea moacă de turc?

Nu si nici Iancu.
Turcii sunt un amestec de mediteraneni, semi-asiatici si armenoizi.
Armenoizii si dinaricii sunt similari cand ii compari in bloc cu nordicii sau cu mediteranenii dar foarte diferiti cand ii pui doar pe ei unul langa altul.
Ambii au oase mari si fetze late si trasaturi proeminente dar difera mult linia fetei, nasul etc.
Iancu e un dinaric spre alpin (cap si trasaturi mai rotunde). Matia e un dinaric clasic (trasaturi mai late si mai dure). In mod clar nici maica-sa nu era o asiatica sau asa, probabil era o familie de boieri rom^ni, slavi de sud, sau germana de sud asimilata ungurilor, sau o familie maghiara in care intrasera multi localnici.

Edited by searcher-star, 10 September 2013 - 15:50.

Unii istorici maghiari considera ca familia lui Iancu era de origine cumana asta pornind de la numele tatalui : Voicu-Vajk care potrivit istoriciilor maghiari are rezonanta turcica, pecenega sau cumana, dar cam toti  sunt de acord ca deja pana la Iancu familia era deja asimilata in masa romaneasca deci Iancu era roman. Deja la Matia se poate spune ca se considera maghiar. In legatura cu asta se tot spune ca nu se poate vorbi despre ideea de natiune mai incolo de secolul XIX, dar se poate mentiona ca contra argument descoperirea unor tablite in Roma pe care erau inscriptionate nume dacice, Pieporus, Drilgisa, etc si se mentioneaza ca erau  DE NATIONE DACA, deci cum ii asta cu cu natia?

 searcher-star, on 10 septembrie 2013 - 15:49, said:

Asta imi aminteste de statuia lui Stefan cel Mare din Iasi .

------------
Si mai recent de cineva care afirma ca Eminescu ar fi rom la origini dupa o poza.
Chiar nu-mi pasa daca originile lui Eminescu ar fi rome. Evident el s-a simtit roman. Si a simtit si actionat ca atare.
Si chiar conteaza ca Anton Pann nu a fost roman ? Ca foarte multi atatia altii ........
Ma repet. Nu conteaza ca Matei Corvin ar fi avut ceva roman in sange. Conteaza cum s-a perceput ca rang, functie si etnie. Conteaza cum a actionat ca atare. Deci a fost un mare rege maghiar.

Edited by tflorin40, 10 September 2013 - 19:59.

Voicu este un nume românesc foarte popular, de origine slavă. Varianta feminină este Voica cu diminutivul Voichiţa, nume de asemenea foarte populare printre româncele din acele vremuri. Numele tatălui şi a altor rude ale lui Iancu se cunosc. Au nume tipice pentru românii din epocă.

Oricum, numele pot fi luate în considerare doar de cei superficiali. Vasile Lupu era albanez, de exemplu.

Dintr-un articol unguresc, ca să vedeţi ce nume puteau avea unii români din Transilvania. Până şi istoricul ungur a observat că Iancu înnobila cu predilecţie şi masiv români (înnobilare în masă a cnezilor români). Din nou, de notat numele maghiarizate ale nobililor români.

In the 14th century, there were no Romanians in Transylvania who had full noble status. In the Romanian districts of Hunyad county and of the counties of Severin Province that still belonged to Hungary, judicial affairs were handled until the end of the 1400s by castellans, who were appointed by Transylvania's voivode or by the governor (bán) of Severin, and assisted by jurymen selected from among the cnezes. The cnezes performed personal military service and paid land-rent and sheep-tax for the villages under their administration. As the Turkish threat intensified, the cnezes of the royal castle-estates on the southern frontier performed more and more military service. As a result, many of the Romanian cnezes in the area of today's Bánság and Hunyad county won conditional nobility and, by the end of the century, attained full nobility. It is hardly coincidental that the mass ennoblement of Romanian cnezes is linked to the name of János Hunyadi, for this great general had grown up among them and understood their aspirations. When he served as Transylvania's voivode and Székely count (the first time that the two offices were held by one man), Hunyadi drew into his retinue not only Hungarian and Székely retainers but also several Romanian cnezes. The powerful voivode's followers were naturally the first to benefit from his favour, and several distinguished Transylvanian families trace their ancestry to cnezes ennobled by Hunyadi: the Nádasdi Ungor, Malomvizi Kenderesi, Kendeffi, and Csulai families of Hunyad county, and the Csornai, Bizerei, Mutnoki, Temeseli Dési, and Macskási families from Severin Province. In the second half of the 15th century, the number of {1-494.} newly-ennobled Romanians in Hunyad county compared with that of the lesser nobility in any Hungarian county: they included cnez families from the royal castle-districts at Hátszeg, Déva, and Jófő (Bajesdi, Barbátvizi, Bári, Brettyei, Csolnokosi, Farkadini, Fejérvizi, Galaci, Karulyosdi, Kernyesti, Klopotivai, Lindzsinai, Livádi, Macesdi, Oncsokfalvi, Osztrói, Pestényi, Ponori, Puji, Riusori, Szacsali, Szentpéterfalvi, Szilvási, Totesdi, Vádi, Várhelyi, Zejkányi); some of them, such as the Szálláspataki and Demsusi Muzsina families, had estates that encompassed a large number of villages. János Hunyadi's mother came from the Demsusi Muzsina family. Noble titles and demesnes were granted to the voivodes of Sebesvár, in Kolozs county, from whom descend the Meregjói Botos, Kalotai Vajda, Csicsei Vajda, and Danki Vajda families, as well as to the Lupsai Kende family in Alsó-Fehér county. In the late 14th and early 15th centuries, the Romanian elite in the Fogaras region had feudal estates granted to them by the king of Hungary, but they remained under the jurisdiction of Wallachia's voivodes; this explains why they were known not as cnezes but as boyars, a title of Bulgar origin that was used by the nobles of Wallachia. In the feudal hierarchy, the boyars of Fogaras had a status similar to that of cnezes on other royal castle-estates, although they were obligated to provide feudal services on a larger scale than the latter. Several boyar families attained full noble status, notably the Maylád family, which played an important role in the early modern period. All this is in regard to the historic territory of Transylvania; there were Romanian nobles in other parts of Hungary as well.
Ennobled Romanians not only took on the title but also adopted the legal code, administrative institutions, and lifestyle of the Hungarian nobility. Máramaros acquired, as noted, an administrative structure identical to that of Hungarian counties. In the second half of the 15th century, the cnezial court covering districts in Severin evolved into a standard county court; the official responsible for the preparation and application of the court's rulings, known {1-495.} as the krajnik, gradually assumed the role of county judge. A similar development took place in the Hátszeg area. In the 14th century, the assembly of cnezes was still convened by the royal castellan, and his word would rule the day; but by the early 1400s, the cnezes began to act as autonomous nobles, for they would at times assemble, render judgement, and issue charters without any involvement on the part of the castellan. In Hunyad county, where there was an established Hungarian nobility and nobiliary court, the ennobled Romanians espoused the existing institutions, and the cnezial court ceased to exist.
Many, but not all of the ennobled Romanian cnezes adhered to the Roman Catholic Church. In the Máramaros, a sizeable number of them stayed with the Greek Orthodox Church. Hungary's kings insisted on conversion only in the cases of nobles living in the southern frontier regions, and their motivation was mainly political, for the 'rebellious Wallachian voivodes' exploited religion to make trouble in Hungary. Only those ennobled Romanians became linguistically assimilated who had regular contact with the Hungarians; but, following the pattern of nobles of Slovak origin, all of them assimilated a Hungarian outlook and Hungarian values. The Romanian noblemen in Hungary were forthright in declaring themselves members of the 'Hungarian nation' of nobles. While their counterparts in Wallachia and Moldavia, voivodes and boyars, adopted — with few exceptions — a conciliatory attitude towards the Ottoman Turks, Hungary's Romanian noblemen accepted the obligations that went with their privileged status and fought loyally at the side of the Hungarians.
Hungarians did not generally regard the Romanian noblemen as foreigners. In the second half of the 15th century, Hungary's kings regularly appointed Romanians to high office, and this without incurring protest from a Hungarian nobility that already had a highly developed sense of national identity. Several Romanians were appointed to the important office of governor in Severin {1-496.} Province: Mihály Csornai (1447–54), István and Mihály Mutnoki (1467–69), and, at the end of the century, Péter Macskási. János Malomvizi Kenderesi and Mihály Pestényi both served as count of the Máramaros, and Péter Temeseli Dési as count of Bereg county. János Nádasdi Ungor, whose father had taught János Hunyadi how to handle arms, was a favourite of King Matthias. Through his wife, who issued from the Lendvai Bánffy family, he had become related to some of the country's oldest aristocratic families, and his success as a military commander earned him vast estates. Another Romanian success story is that of the Csulai family, from the Hátszeg region. Vlad Csulai, a noble cnez of modest means, had seven sons, five of whom attained high public office. László Ficsor served as ban of Jajca and of Severin, Miklós Kende as ban of Sabác, György Móré as ban of Severin and of Nándorfehérvár, János Báncsa as castellan of Bálványos, and Fülöp Móré as bishop of Pécs; their wives came from the aristocratic Bethlen, Haranglábi, and Dóczi families.

http://mek.oszk.hu/0...07/html/81.html

Edited by cstrife, 10 September 2013 - 20:32.

La Vasile Lupu ma gandeam si eu .

Vasile Lupu (Koci) era albanez.
Cumanii sunt un neam de turci asa-zisi "vechi", ca si rudele lor pecenegii, avarii, hunii, etc.
Se pastreaza relatari destule care-i descriu ca fiind "oachesi", adicatelea ceva mai bruneti.
Putem sa reluam aici si legenda lui "Negru-Voda", - fiul cumanului Tokhomerius, el insusi posibil cuman si catolic venit din Ardeal si intemeind Tara Romaneasca. N.Djuvara si altii sustin ca ar fi fost cuman.
Trasaturi cumanice are si Vlad Tepes ( aceste caracteristici recesive apar din cand in cand) asa cum e infatisat in pictura de la Ambras.
Despre "facies cumanicus" s-a scris destul pe net.

 von_Pallavicini, on 10 septembrie 2013 - 21:43, said:

Si cui ii pasa ?
Intrebarea e cum si de ce ajung sa fie pana la urma romani ?

Edited by tflorin40, 10 September 2013 - 21:54.

Tema topicului este despre Matei Corvin. Iar pe acest subiect m-am pronuntat acum cateva zile si nu reiau.
Dar unii pun intrebari despre cumani si alte natii si daca stim, raspundem.

Edited by von_Pallavicini, 10 September 2013 - 21:59.

De fapt tema topicului e daca :

"Matia Corvin era român?"

Ne definesc originile sau optiunile si actiunile ?
Francezii il reneaga pe Napoleon ?
Remarc de multi ani incoace o puterernica atitudine promonarhista. Nu stau sa scormonesc prea mult in cat de mult bine sau rau au facut. In schimb toti chiar daca nu au fost romani, si-au asumat aceasta responsabilitate. Si ca prim reprezentant al statului.

 von_Pallavicini, on 10 septembrie 2013 - 21:43, said:

Un popor al cărui nume însemna palid/galben/deschis, în rusă, maghiară, armeană sau germană, era format din oameni ceva mai bruneți?

Straniu.

 von_Pallavicini, on 10 septembrie 2013 - 21:43, said:

Textele spun că ar fi chiar blonduţi cu ochi albaştri.
De unde scoţi asta cu ciuciurii să mor de ştiu.

The Cumans' name in Russian and German means "yellow", in reference to the color of the Cumans' hair.[17] The Ukrainian word Polovtsy (Пóловці) means "blond", since the old Ukrainian word polovo means "straw". Kuman means "pale yellow" in Turkic. Some authors put forward the idea that the name Polovtsy referred to "men of the field, or of the steppe" (from the Ukrainian word pole: open ground, field), not to be confused with polyane (cf. Greek polis: city). In Slavic languages the word 'polyane' literally means "open ground, field". According to O. Suleymenov polovtsy came from a word for "blue-eyed", since the Serbo-Croatian word plav means "blue":[18] the Eastern Slavic equivalent would take the regular form *polov.

 von_Pallavicini, on 10 septembrie 2013 - 21:43, said:

Negru înseamnă şi NORD ca şi punct cardinal.
Un vodă venit de peste munţi pt. un muntean înseamnă că este negru pt. că a venit din nord.

 paradigmatic, on 11 septembrie 2013 - 09:06, said:

1Populatiile de stepa au fost foarte amestecate dpdv al infatisarii, pana la sfarsitul lor si colonizarea stepelor cu rusi si chinezi.
Indiferent ce origine a avut grupul de baza al etniei x, mereu i s-au adaugat elemente din zonele limitrofe, in cazul campiilor ucrainene, elemente nordice.
Chiar si tatarii din Crimeea erau majoritar cu moace de rusi.
2Corect, si Calaretul Apocalipsei caruia i se da Nordul e tot negru.

 cstrife, on 10 septembrie 2013 - 20:20, said:

Deci ramane cum ziceam: da, ajuta romanii sa promoveze.
Dar odata cu promotia venea si maghiarizarea.
Chiar surprinzator de repede.