Istoria Chinei!

Este interesant , cat de repede au putut cuceri manciurienii China, sau impus in administratie si au dominat China pana la inceputul secolului XX, SANSA cHINEI CRED CA A Fost  ca manciurieni erau deja in mare parte sinizati.

Foarte frumos scris @searcher-star!
O curiozitate personala: cunosti limba chineza la nivel de citit?

dan78rom, on 27 septembrie 2013 - 21:27, said:

Nu, din pacate, si-s prea lenes sa ma apuc. Tu?

SucreBolivar88, on 27 septembrie 2013 - 19:47, said:

Sansa asta a sinizarii cred ca a fost mai degraba a manciurienilor, in sensul ca chinezii i-ar fi acceptat mult mai greu daca nu erau.
Asta fiind zis, trebuie constientizate doua lucruri:
- n-aveau cum fi altfel decat partial sinizati, data fiind zona de origine
- cand au cucerit China, populatia acesteia a scazut cu macar 30%, fiecare oras fiind pradat cel putin odata; chiar daca i-au acceptat, cred ca s-ar fi lipsit bucurosi
Ceea ce ne duce la marea intrebare, totusi cum a putut fi o tara ca China asa de slaba militar. Vorbim totusi de 750.000 manciurieni cucerind 150 milioane chinezi.
Hai ca i-a cucerit Gingis, fie, odata cine stie ce freaky occasion o fi fost. Dar de doua ori, si mai ales dupa fortificarea Ming...
Inseamna ca tot esafodajul lor politico-administrativ avea o mare slabiciune structurala, altfel nu se explica.

Edited by searcher-star, 30 September 2013 - 11:11.

searcher-star, on 30 septembrie 2013 - 11:11, said:

Nici eu din pacate. De vorbit citeva chestii simple am invatat, dar scrisul e tragedie, mai ales ca aceluiasi cuvint, doar accentuat diferit, ii corespunde un alt caracter, si are complet alt inteles.

http://www.counter-c...ization-part-2/

searcher-star, on 30 septembrie 2013 - 11:11, said:

  Pai da, au cunoscut si ei mai multe perioade de dezintegrare politica numai ca de la noi privind avem tendinta de a vedea China un tot unitar, probabil ca sau civilizat prea mult adica au devenit prea finuti, iar aia din stepe mai vanjosi si mai brutali i-au putut domina mai usor.

Ceva interesant legat de praful de pusca si artilerie, si e foarte probabil, tinand cont ca japonezii au invatat despre armele de foc si chiar despre artificii de la portughezi.
Chinese sources sometimes represent later, or foreign, inventions as earlier native ones for the greater glory of China, and much caution is advised in accepting these claims. European sources, on the contrary, generally attribute innovations to the mysterious East, or to refugees, rather than to native invention. This has had a strong effect on the translation of Chinese materials by western scholars, who assume what they wish to believe. Incidentally, the first Roman embassy to China reached there by ship in AD 166, and the silk trade flourished for centuries, so the transmission of western influences to China can hardly be doubted. Transmission in the reverse direction is, of course, well accepted. A Roman legion captured by the Parthians was sold to a Chinese emperor, and many of the men remained even after they were ransomed, so valued had they become as engineers. Some writers have even suggested that gunpowder, in the restricted sense, reached China from the West. Indeed, the first cannon in China were introduced by Jesuits in 1520, and the Japanese say fireworks were introduced to their country by the Dutch around 1600, at the port of Sakai, near Osaka. Gunpowder could not have been introduced to Europe by the Chinese, because gunpowder did not then exist. However, the Chinese did make a very valuable and ingenious contribution in the form of nitrates.

Un text foarte interesant, bun de pus la mai multe topicuri:
Bridging the gap: agrarian roots of economic divergence in Eurasia up to the late middle ages
Adam Izdebski, Peter Foldvari, Guanglin Liu, Bas van Leeuwen, and Xuyi
http://www.basvanlee...n/bridgegap.pdf

muzica de curte chineza
[ https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/YeA8n6mH9oI?feature=oembed - Pentru incarcare in pagina (embed) Click aici ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuezhi

Pana la urma avem aici un raspuns de unde puteau proveni personajele cu infatisari vestice in istoria timpurie a Chinei.
Deci daca o luam asa, chinezii si-au inceput expansiunea din Gansu-ul si Shaanxi-ul actual, si vestul Henan-ului. Langa ei erau birmanezii ceva mai la sud thailandezii, mai la sud-est polinezienii si vietnamezii, mai la nord-est japonezii...
La est in Shanxi si Henan-ul de est erau triburi de "razboinici vestici".
Jumatatea de sud a Chinei era inca negroida.
In timpul dinastiei Shang chinezii se extend spre est pana la ocean, dar triburile astea raman ca mercenari influenti. Dinastia Zhou se bazeaza pe ei cand rastoarna Shang.
Cu timpul se topesc in chinezi dar aparent pastreaza inca o fiinta proprie la 150BC cand primesc intre ei refugiati Yuezhi fugariti din Turkestanul lor natal de catre Wusun.
Atat Wusun cat si Yuezhi sunt descrisi ca "blonzi sau roscati ca maimutele".
Yuezhi pot fi oarecum echivalati cu slavii actuali, unii sarbi si bulgari spun ca se trag din ei.
Wusun insa... se pare ca Wusun e pronuntia chineza a lui Osman.
Probabil asistam la diferentierea din sanul europoizilor de stepa, intre turanici si europeni.
Ma gandesc ca amestecul cu asiatici e de vina.
Oricum, ideea e ca inca in sec.2BC triburile astea de tip vestic inca existau in China, si europoizii din stepa care se refugiau dupa infrangeri veneau inca sa se aseze intre ei, chiar daca nu mai mult de cateva sute de familii.
Din moment ce traiau mai ales in Shanxi si Henan, nu e de mirare ca gasim oameni blonzi precum Sun Quan sau nevasta lui Zhuge Liang in zone ca Shandong sau Anhui. Mercenari fiind, probabil s-au deplasat cu frontul pionier si totodata s-au departat de zonele centrale tot mai dens sinizate. Dar pana la urma tot s-au asimilat.

Edited by searcher-star, 06 February 2014 - 13:47.

http://www.historyor...ina_economy.php
Quantitative Growth, Qualitative Standstill: China's Economic Situation 1368-1800
by James Graham

In the years between 1368 and 1800 China's economy expanded immensely. Steady compounding growth in China's population was the main driver of this growth. Agriculture, industry and trade thus all increased in absolute terms but stagnated in relative per capita terms. The limits of China's traditional economy, cultural preferences, trade policies and other factors conspired to inhibit any significant improvement in China's qualitative economic situation.

Quantitative growth is in effect growth in a country's gross domestic product (GDP) and qualitative growth an increase in a country's GDP per capita. Quality of life, life expectancy, income distribution and other factors also affect the quality of growth. All are hard to measure and virtually impossible to gauge in a systematic manner for pre- modern China. Thus there are limitations as to how far a qualitative standstill for China can be proved or disproved.
Estimates of China's population increase between 1368 and 1800 vary but there is no doubt that immense but slow growth in the population took place. Ho Ping-ti has calculated China's population in 1398 to be in the vicinity of 65 million people growing to 430 million by 1850. Dwight Perkins in contrast estimates China's population in 1400 at between 65-80 million people growing to 410 million plus or minus 25 million by 1850. Both estimates indicate an approximate five fold increase in China's population for the period 1368-1800. It was this five fold increase in population that fuelled China's quantitative economic growth.
China's economy like most pre-modern economies was agriculturally based with all other sectors either servicing it or drawing materials from it. During the Song dynasty the Chinese developed the world's most productive agricultural system. Mongol domination and the Ming dynasty's rise to power left much of China devastated and parts uninhabited. Economic growth from this low base only required a period of relative stability and semi-competent rule. This rejuvenation would also have improved China's GDP per capita and thus China's standard of living though probably only to levels achieved under the Song dynasty.

Muzica de burghezi instariti:
[ https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/6qgDxQicjnI?feature=oembed - Pentru incarcare in pagina (embed) Click aici ]

searcher-star, on 06 februarie 2014 - 13:46, said:

Yueti, sunt dupa unele posibilitati probabil geto-daci, sa nu uitam ca in zona respectiva traiau masagetii si dahii, cam mare distanta dar totusi destul de putin probabil ca  sa fie altceva decat daco-geti !

SucreBolivar88, on 01 aprilie 2014 - 10:06, said:

Yueh-chi sunt considerati indeobste a fi fost Alani.
Sunt descrisi ca blonzi si roscati ''ca maimutele''.

Edited by searcher-star, 01 April 2014 - 10:14.

http://noahpinionblo...ient-china.html
Un text interesant, mai ales acuma cu cresterea lor...

http://books.google....id=_Ndor_PwcvkC
Markets: Traditional Korean Society
De Sŭng-mo Chŏng
O carte interesanta.
Va sa zica, e cum banuiam: economia in perioada budista a fost mai cosmopolita, mai urbana si mai efervescenta IN CENTRE, si-n special in capitala.
Societatea neo-confucianista de dupa mongoli a fost mult mai rurala si localista.
Dar pe de alta parte, economia budista se pare c-a neglijat lumea rurala, mai mult extragandu-i resursele.
Neo-confucianismul se pare c-a ajutat, totusi, economia locala, rurala.

M-am gandit ca e de pus asta si la China, evolutia a fost similara.

http://www.crpe.cn/0.../lunwen/157.pdf
Un text interesant despre agricultura chineza in vremea Ming tarzie si Qing.
Aspecte interesante de retinut:
- nivelul de trai pare a fi ramas constant de la 1500 la 1800
- asa cum am mai zis are loc o crestere a productiei agricole fantastica datorita adoptarii porumbului, dar productia mestesugareasca nu creste, pe capita vorbind, iar rata de urbanizare scade; de fapt, cresterea Agricola se concretizeaza intr-o marire fenomenala a populatiei care intre 1650 si 1800 trece de la 100 la 350 milioane, dar pe capita nivelul stagneaza
- culturile americane aduse de spanioli permit colonizarea de pamanturi virgine care chiar la 1600 continuau sa existe la 2 pasi de orezariile dens populate
- porumbul e cel mai de succes import, fiindca e cel mai rezistent si, totdata, cel mai SIMPLU de cultivat

Edited by searcher-star, 23 May 2014 - 11:21.

Despre urbanismul chinez.
http://books.google....rbanism&f=false
Interesant e ca autorul considera ca din. Ming a fost mai dezvoltata ca Song, si Qing ca Ming.
Ceea ce, considerand ca Song e considerata de unii ca apogeul Chinei premoderne, schimba optica.
Unii considerau ca Song era un fel de SF al lumii medievale. Autorul asta arata ca nu era chiar asa.

Iar asta inseamna ca un calator prin China anilor 1750 avea in fata ochilor apogeul civilizatiei chineze premoderne.

Care nu era rau deloc dar nu era nici spectaculos. Adam Smith cel putin nu era foarte impresionat, ori el credea ca China vremii lui e stagnanta sau poate chiar in declin.