Istoria Chinei!

De la inceputuri pana la Republica Populara Chineza inclusiv....adica totul pana in ziua de azi.
Am deschis topicul ca sa invat pentru ca ma intereseaza in mod deosebit.

Si sa vedem ce ar putea fi in viitor tinand cont de trecut si  de contextul international

Iar daca sunt cunoscatori ar fi extraordinar sa putem discuta si de rasa, adica genetica.

Nu cumva te intereseaza de fapt ale cui au fost prima data alea 2 insule?
Chinezii zic ca ale lor, ca au gasit niste harti foarte vechi de la 18xx, cand erau trecute ca apartin de ei.

China a fost intotdeauna o putere cu vechiile ei dinastii..... mai tarziu, venirea comunismului, fabricarea armelor nucleare, puterile si influentele s-au schimbat ....vezi Yalta unde s-au cam transat sferele de influenta in Europa....
puterea Chinei a inceput sa creasca...mai nou...ei avand o forta mare de raspandire.....
au cateva orase foarte dezvoltate vezi Hangzhou, Hong Kong, Shanghai dar si o serie de orase foarte sarace
se presupune ca deja au devansat americanii cu ceva si ca in urmatorii 20 de ani o sa-i aiba la degetu' mic
mie unul nu m-as bucura ca tara mica sa ma aflu in sfera de influenta a acestora mai ales ca la ei in tara drepturile omului sunt cam sub semnul intrebarii..... natalitatea fiind foarte mare.... la fel si condamnarile la moarte date cu foarte mare usurinta..... vezi un celebru caz al unui patron care era patronul uneia dintre cele mai mari firme de telecomunicatii la ei..... acesta a fost condamnat la moarte pt. faptul ca a luat mita...

in ceea ce priveste cele doua insule.... americanii au insistat ca ei sa isi rezolve problema amiabil.... dar China a raspuns dur nu va amestecati....
la fel si pozitia Rusiei e sub semnul intrebarii nestiindu-se ce parte va lua in cazul unui al treilea razb. mondial.... se presupune ca Rusia si China ar avea un fel de common agreement in caz de ceva ... China a si zis ca va sprijini Iranul in caz de razboi....

dar aici se pune problema ca americanii aveau tot timpul ca aliati pe canadieni, UK, multe tari europene, Australia care era fosta colonie engleza,,,, de ex. Australia a permis americanilor sa aduca niste forte undeva in nord sa tina sub control cumva situatia din Asia in cazul vreunui razboi..... Koreea etc....
mai exista Israelul care multa vreme a fost si a primit spriini de la americani....

asa zisa idee de a fi pace si de ne globaliza cu totii si sa existe multiculturalism , etc..... tinde sa para o firava deziluzie..... fiindca nimeni nu e predispus sa renunte la putere....
de ex. daca vb din pc de vedere economic la reuniunile europene recente Anglia refuzand ideea Frantei si a Germaniei de a ajuta tarile mai mici care nu produceau..sau aveau o viteza lenta de dezvoltare - sau doar pt ca se aflau in EU... ei spunand ca e o idee gresita din start... la fel si pe plan militar....

Studiile arheologice moderne au demonstrat existența unei orînduiri primitive avansate cultural și economic între anii 2000 și 2500 î. e. n. în ariile rîulul Huang He în nordul Chinei. Secole de migrație, amalgamare, asimilare și dezvoltare a populației din această regiune a dus la formarea unui sistem distinctiv de scriere, un corpus filozofic, artistic autentic și o organizare politică, care în zilele noastre se numește civilizația chineză.

Dinastiile antice
După textele mitologice, civilizația chineză începe de la Pangu, creatorul universului, și o succesiune de impărați, înțelepți și eroi mitici (Huang Di, Yao și Shun), care i-au învățat pe chinezii antici să-și dobîndească mîncare, să țeasă și să construiască case.
Prima dinastie preistorică a fost Xia (2100-1700 în. e. n.). În anii 1960 excavările arheologice au descoperit așezăminte omenești în provincia Henan, care au indicat existența unei civilizații urbane in perioada neolitică tîrzie. Dinastia Xia, în urma unor conflicte între triburi, a căzut sub puterea dinastiei Shang. Cele mai semnificative invenții din perioada Shang au fost sistemul ideografic (hieroglific) de scriere și obținerea bronzului pentru metalurgie.

Republica Populară Chineză

Republica Populară Chineză a fost proclamată în 1949 de către Partidul Comunist Chinez, după ce a cîștigat războiul civil cu forțele naționaliste reprezentate de partidul Kuomintang. Guvernul format de Kuomintang s-a refugiat în insula Taiwan, unde a proclamat Republica Chineză, care contestă legitimitatea conducerii comuniste a Chinei.
Republica Populară Chineză consideră Taiwanul o provincie rebelă și a amenințat că va începe război dacă acesta își declară independența.
În 1997 Republica Populară Chineză a preluat controlul asupra Hong Kong-ului, care fusese stăpînit de Marea Britanie, iar în 1999 asupra teritoriului Macao, care fusese sub stăpînire portugheză, în urma unor înțelegeri cu fostele puteri coloniale, prin care s-a angajat să păstreze economia de piață din aceste zone, conform sistemului "o țară, două sisteme".

http://ro.wikipedia....

Mai multe informatii pe wiki in engleza:
The nation of China has had numerous historical incarnations. The ancient Chinese civilization—one of the world's earliest—flourished in the fertile basin of the Yellow River in the North China Plain. China's political system was based on hereditary monarchies, known as dynasties, beginning with the semi-mythological Xia of the Yellow River basin (approx. 2000 BC) and ending with the fall of the Qing Dynasty in 1911. Since 221 BC, when the Qin Dynasty first conquered several states to form a Chinese empire, the country has expanded, fractured and been reformed numerous times. The Republic of China [ROC], founded in 1911 after the overthrow of the Qing dynasty, ruled the Chinese mainland until 1949. In 1945, the ROC acquired Taiwan from Japan following World War II

In the 1946–1949 phase of the Chinese Civil War, the Chinese Communist Party defeated the nationalist Kuomintang in mainland China and established the People's Republic of China in Beijing on 1 October 1949. The Kuomintang relocated the ROC government to Taiwan, establishing its capital in Taipei. The ROC's jurisdiction is now limited to Taiwan and several outlying islands, including Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu. Since 1949, the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China (now widely known as "Taiwan") have remained in dispute over the sovereignty of China and the political status of Taiwan, mutually claiming each other's territory and competing for international diplomatic recognition. In 1971, the PRC gained admission to the United Nations and took the Chinese seat as a permanent member of the U.N. Security Council. China is also a member of numerous formal and informal multilateral organizations, including the WTO, APEC, BRICS, the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, the BCIM and the G-20. As of August 2012, all but 23 countries have recognized the PRC as the sole legitimate government of China.

Since the introduction of economic reforms in 1978, China has become the world's fastest-growing major economy. As of 2012, it is the world's second-largest economy, after the United States, by both nominal GDP and purchasing power parity (PPP), and is also the world's largest exporter and second-largest importer of goods. On a per capita income basis, China ranked 90th by nominal GDP and 91st by GDP (PPP) in 2011, according to the IMF. China is a recognized nuclear weapons state and has the world's largest standing army, with the second-largest defense budget. In 2003, China became the third nation in the world, after the former Soviet Union and the United States, to independently launch a successful manned space mission. China has been characterized as a potential superpower by a number of academics, military analysts, and public policy and economics analysts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China

Edited by heroes3, 23 September 2012 - 13:31.

care inceputuri, prioada celor 7 regate, inainte sau de la huang ti incoace, ca ala a creat china de fapt?

Prehistory
Archaeological evidence suggests that early hominids inhabited China between 250,000 and 2.24 million years ago. A cave in Zhoukoudian (near present-day Beijing) exhibits fossils dated at between 300,000 and 780,000 BC. The fossils are of Peking Man, an example of Homo erectus who used fire. There are also remains of Homo sapiens dating back to 18,000–11,000 BC found at the Peking Man site.

Early dynastic rule
Chinese tradition names the first dynasty Xia, but it was considered mythical until scientific excavations found early Bronze Age sites at Erlitou in Henan Province in 1959. Archaeologists have since uncovered urban sites, bronze implements, and tombs in locations cited as Xia's in ancient historical texts, but it is impossible to verify that these remains are of the Xia without written records from the period.

The first Chinese dynasty that left historical records, the loosely feudal Shang (Yin), settled along the Yellow River in eastern China from the 17th to the 11th century BC. The oracle bone script of the Shang Dynasty represent the oldest forms of Chinese writing found and the direct ancestor of modern Chinese characters used throughout East Asia.

Imperial China
The first unified Chinese state was established by Qin Shi Huang of the Qin state in 221 BC. Qin Shi Huang proclaimed himself the "First Emperor", and imposed many reforms throughout China, notably the forced standardization of the Chinese language, measurements, length of cart axles, and currency. The Qin Dynasty lasted only fifteen years, falling soon after Qin Shi Huang's death, as its harsh legalist and authoritarian policies led to widespread rebellion.

The subsequent Han Dynasty ruled China between 206 BC and 220 AD, and created a lasting Han cultural identity among its populace that extends to the present day. The Han Dynasty expanded the empire's territory considerably with military campaigns reaching Korea, Vietnam, Mongolia and Central Asia, and also helped establish the Silk Road in Central Asia. China was for a large part of the last two millennia the world's largest economy. However, in the later part of the Qing Dynasty, China's economic development began to slow and Europe's rapid development in the Industrial Revolution enabled it to surpass China.

After the collapse of Han, another period of disunion followed, including the highly chivalric period of the Three Kingdoms. Independent Chinese states of this period such as Wu opened diplomatic relations with Japan, introducing the Chinese writing system there. In 580 AD, China was reunited under the Sui.However, the Sui Dynasty declined following its defeat in the Goguryeo–Sui War (598–614).

In 1271, the Mongol leader and fifth Khagan of the Mongol Empire Kublai Khan established the Yuan Dynasty, with the last remnant of the Song Dynasty falling to the Yuan in 1279. Before the Mongol invasion, Chinese dynasties reportedly had approximately 120 million inhabitants; after the conquest was completed in 1279, the 1300 census reported roughly 60 million people.

http://en.wikipedia....i/China#History

Late dynastic rule
A peasant named Zhu Yuanzhang overthrew the Yuan Dynasty in 1368 and founded the Ming Dynasty.Under the Ming Dynasty, China enjoyed another golden age, developing one of the strongest navies in the world and a rich and prosperous economy amid a flourishing of art and culture. It was during this period that Zheng He led explorations throughout the world, reaching as far as Africa.

In 1644, Beijing was sacked by a coalition of rebel forces led by Li Zicheng, a minor Ming official who led the peasant revolt. The last Ming Chongzhen Emperor committed suicide when the city fell. The Manchu Qing Dynasty then allied with Ming Dynasty general Wu Sangui and overthrew Li's short-lived Shun Dynasty, and subsequently seized control of Beijing, which became the new capital of the Qing Dynasty. In total, the Manchu conquest of China cost as many as 25 million lives.

The Qing Dynasty, which lasted until 1912, was the last imperial dynasty of China. In the 19th century, the Qing Dynasty adopted a defensive posture towards European imperialism, even though it engaged in an imperialistic expansion of its own into Central Asia. At this time, China awoke to the significance of the rest of the world, the West in particular. As China opened up to foreign trade and missionary activity, opium produced by British India was forced onto Qing China. Two Opium Wars with Britain weakened the Emperor's control. Western imperialism proved to be disastrous for China:
The end of the Opium War marked the beginning of Western imperialism in China. Unequal treaties, imposed at the end of the war, forced China to relinquish Hong Kong, open new "Treaty Ports" to foreign trade, pay indemnities to her vanquishers, and allow foreigners to live and work on Chinese soil free of the jurisdiction of Chinese law (extraterritoriality). Over the years new wars with Western powers would expand these impositions on China's national sovereignty, culminating in the Treaty of Shimonoseki, which ended the Sino-Japanese War of 1894- 95.

By the early 20th century, mass civil disorder had begun, and calls for reform and revolution were heard across the country. The 38-year-old Emperor Guangxu died under house arrest on 14 November 1908, suspiciously just a day before Cixi's own death. With the throne empty, he was succeeded by Cixi's handpicked heir, his two year old nephew Puyi, who became the Xuantong Emperor. Guangxu's consort became the Empress Dowager Longyu. In another coup de'tat, Yuan Shikai overthrew the last Qing emperor, and forced empress Dowager Longyu to sign the abdication decree as regent in 1912, ending two thousand years of imperial rule in China. She died, childless, in 1913.

Republic of China (1912–1949)
On 1 January 1912, the Republic of China was established, heralding the end of Imperial China. Sun Yat-sen of the Kuomintang (the KMT or Nationalist Party) was proclaimed provisional president of the republic. However, the presidency was later given to Yuan Shikai, a former Qing general, who had ensured the defection of the entire Beiyang Army from the Qing Empire to the revolution. In 1915, Yuan proclaimed himself Emperor of China, but was forced to abdicate and reestablish the republic in the face of popular condemnation, not only from the general population but also from among his own Beiyang Army and its commanders.

After Yuan Shikai's death in 1916, China was politically fragmented, with an internationally recognized but virtually powerless national government seated in Beijing. Regional warlords exercised actual control over their respective territories. In the late 1920s, the nationalist Kuomintang, under Chiang Kai-shek, was able to reunify the country under its own control with a series of deft military and political maneuverings, known collectively as the Northern Expedition. The Kuomintang moved the nation's capital to Nanjing and implemented "political tutelage", an intermediate stage of political development outlined in Sun Yat-sen's San-min program for transforming China into a modern democratic state. Effectively, political tutelage meant one-party rule by the Kuomintang, but the party was politically divided into competing cliques. This political division made it difficult for Chiang to battle the Communists, which the Kuomintang had been warring against since 1927 in the Chinese Civil War. This war continued successfully for the Kuomintang, especially after the Communists retreated in the Long March, until the Xi'an Incident and Japanese aggression forced Chiang to confront Imperial Japan.

The Second Sino-Japanese War (1937–1945), a part of World War II, forced an uneasy alliance between the Kuomintang and the Communists. The Japanese "three-all policy" in northern China—"kill all, burn all and destroy all"—led to numerous war atrocities being committed against the civilian population; in all, as many as 20 million Chinese civilians were killed. An estimated 200,000 Chinese were massacred in the city of Nanjing alone during the Japanese occupation. Japan unconditionally surrendered to China in 1945. Taiwan, including the Pescadores, was put under the administrative control of the Republic of China, which immediately claimed sovereignty. China emerged victorious but war-ravaged and financially drained. The continued distrust between the Kuomintang and the Communists led to the resumption of civil war. In 1947, constitutional rule was established, but because of the ongoing unrest many provisions of the ROC constitution were never implemented in mainland China.

http://en.wikipedia....E2.80.931949.29

People's Republic of China (1949–present)
Major combat in the Chinese Civil War ended in 1949 with the Communist Party in control of mainland China, and the Kuomintang retreating offshore, reducing the ROC's territory to only Taiwan, Hainan, and their surrounding islands. On 1 October 1949, Mao Zedong proclaimed the People's Republic of China, which was commonly known in the West as "Communist China" or "Red China" during the Cold War. In 1950, the People's Liberation Army succeeded in capturing Hainan from the ROC, occupying Tibet, and defeating the majority of the remaining Kuomintang forces in Yunnan and Xinjiang provinces, though some Kuomintang holdouts survived until much later.

Mao Zedong proclaiming the establishment of the People's Republic of China in 1949.
Mao encouraged population growth, and under his leadership the Chinese population almost doubled from around 550 million to over 900 million. However, Mao's Great Leap Forward, a large-scale economic and social reform project, resulted in an estimated 45 million deaths between 1958 and 1961, mostly from starvation. Between 1 and 2 million landlords were executed as "counterrevolutionaries.

In 1966, Mao and his allies launched the Cultural Revolution, which would last until Mao's death a decade later. The Cultural Revolution, motivated by power struggles within the Party and a fear of the Soviet Union, led to a major upheaval in Chinese society. In October 1971, the PRC replaced the Republic of China in the United Nations, and took its seat as a permanent member of the Security Council. In that same year, for the first time, the number of countries recognizing the PRC surpassed those recognizing the ROC in Taipei as the government of China. In February 1972, at the peak of the Sino-Soviet split, Mao and Zhou Enlai met Richard Nixon in Beijing. However, the U.S. did not officially recognise the PRC as China's sole legitimate government until 1 January 1979.

After Mao's death in 1976 and the arrest of the Gang of Four, who were blamed for the excesses of the Cultural Revolution, Deng Xiaoping quickly wrested power from Mao's anointed successor Hua Guofeng. Although he never became the head of the party or state himself, Deng was in fact the Paramount Leader of China at that time, his influence within the Party led the country to significant economic reforms. The Communist Party subsequently loosened governmental control over citizens' personal lives and the communes were disbanded with many peasants receiving multiple land leases, which greatly increased incentives and agricultural production. This turn of events marked China's transition from a planned economy to a mixed economy with an increasingly open market environment, a system termed by some "market socialism"; the Communist Party of China officially describes it as "socialism with Chinese characteristics". China adopted its current constitution on 4 December 1982.

President Jiang Zemin and Premier Zhu Rongji, both former mayors of Shanghai, led the nation in the 1990s. Under Jiang and Zhu's ten years of administration, China's economic performance pulled an estimated 150 million peasants out of poverty and sustained an average annual gross domestic product growth rate of 11.2%.The country formally joined the World Trade Organization in 2001.

Although rapid economic growth has made the Chinese economy the world's second-largest, this growth has also severely impacted the country's resources and environment. Another concern is that the benefits of economic development has not been distributed evenly, resulting in a wide development gap between urban and rural areas. As a result, under President Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabao, the Chinese government initiated policies to address these issues of equitable distribution of resources, though the outcome remains to be seen. More than 40 million farmers have been displaced from their land, usually for economic development, contributing to the 87,000 demonstrations and riots across China in 2005. Living standards have improved significantly but political controls remain tight.In addition, preparations for a major Communist Party leadership change in late 2012 were marked by political scandals and factional disputes.

http://en.wikipedia....80.93present.29

Sorin84k, on 23 septembrie 2012 - 12:16, said:

Hartile sunt de pe la 15xx. De la 16xx incolo era deja prea tarziu sa mai emita pretentii.

Foarte buna ideea asta cu istoria Chinei, e o civilizatie intr-adevar obligatoriu de studiat si analizat.
Sa incepem cu baza deci.

Pamantul si oamenii.
Pamantul e nitel diferit, in majoritatea istoriei, decat ce vedem noi acum pe harta.
Pe vremea cand s-au constituit chinezii ca civilizatie nu stapaneau nici Tibetul, nici Yunnanul, nici Taiwanul, nici Manciuria, nici Mongolia interioara, nici Turkestanul. Acestea sunt integrate abia de pe la 1650 incolo, desi unele sunt periodic sub suzeranitate chineza cum ar fi Turkmenistanul sub Tang sau sudul Manciuriei sub Ming.
Deci, China istorica asa cum a fost ea in majoritatea timpului e cam de 3.5 milioane kmp, adica vreo 38% din suprafata actuala. E strabatuta de fluviul Galben la nord, Albastru la Mijloc.
Ca relief, China e o tara inalta. Majoritatea solului e peste 500m ceea ce face ca agricultura nu e posibila. Cel putin, n-a fost posibila pana la noile plante si soiuri de pe la 1650 incolo, vorbim mai ales de porumbul si cartoful americane. Deci stepele nordice si pantele peste 500m n-au fost folosite pana in secolul 17, chinezii locuind milenii la rand in campii, vai si depresiuni, muntii si dealurile inalte fiind pana acum 3 secole zone pustii sau chiar pline de triburi salbatice.
Nordul e mai bogat in campii, dar mai rece si mai uscat. Pe cand sudul e mai cald si umed, dar si mai muntos. Orez se cultiva traditional doar pana la o linie undeva intre Fluviul Galben si cel Albastru. China antica, nordica, a fost o tara a graului.
Multa vreme nordul a avut grosul populatiei. Chiar foarte grosul ca sa zicem asa: pe la 300AD, erau cam 40 milioane la nord si doar vreo 3-4 la sud.
Rasial, chinezii sunt toti mongoloizi, dar sunt diferente mari intre ei: nordicii sunt chinezii propriu-zisi, vorbitori ai limbii mandarine standard. Sunt scunzi dar nu foarte, scunzi spre medii, iar pielea le e cam ca a majoritatii balcanicilor, alb-aramie, ca a unui muntean sau bulgar neaos. Intre coreeni sau japonezi am vazut oameni mult mai albi decat ei, si deci si decat noi. Mongolii in schimb sunt mai galbeni.
Fizionomia lor nu e extrem de diferita de a noastra, n-au ochii chiar asa mijiti, nasul si figura sunt relativ lungi si destul de personalizate. Pometii nu sunt asa de proeminenti. Parul e brunet dar sunt unii de un brunet mai deschis, spre saten inchis.
Sudistii in schimb sunt galbenii tipici, chiar galbeni si mici, cu figuri mai rotunde, nasuri scurte, par foarte brunet si figuri mai greu de deosebit. Limba lor e mult mai aglutinanta decat chineza oficiala.
Mie unuia limba nordica mi se pare mai sacadat-mieunata oarecum, pe cand sudica mi se pare mai susotit-ciripita. Totusi, lingvistii spun ca e o unica familie lingvistica. Tibetana face parte din familie, si birmaneza, dar nu mongola, nici japoneza sau coreeana, nici turkmena sau turca, nici thailandeza sau vietnameza sau alte limbi indochineze.
Interesant e ca limbile cele mai inrudite cu cele din familia chineza sunt basca, unele dialecte caucaziene si canadian-amerindiene si apasha.
Genetic, chinezii sunt majoritar (75%) membrii haplogrupului O, care e destul de apropiat de R, haplogrupul majoritatii europenilor. Mai au vreo 5-10% haplogrupul K, asemanator papuasilor din Noua Guinee.Istoria Chinei se poate imparti la modul foarte general in urmatoarele faze:
- faza constituirii civilizatiei chineze, pe cursul superior si mijlociu al fluviului Galben, 2000-1500 BC
- faza nucleului civilizatiei primitive de pe cursul inferior si mijlociu al zisului fluviu 1500-1000 BC
- faza unificarii triburilor in mici principate si orase-stat apoi regate 1000-700 BC
- faza razboaielor intre regate 700-250 BC; Confucius pe la 550 BC
- unificarea Chin 250 BC
- fortificarea Han a nucleului statului chinez 250BC - 184 AD; inceputul colonizarii Sudului
- perioada dezbinarii aproape continue a statului chinez, dar incheierea colonizarii Sudului (vorbim in cadrul nucleului istoric amintit spre inceput) 184-589 AD
- reunificarea nucleului si intarirea sa sub dinastiile Sui, Tang si Song 589-1150
- dominatia barbarilor stepei mai intai doar in nord apoi peste tot 1150-1370; se integreaza Yunnanul in nucleul istoric
- dinastia Ming, apogeul Chinei clasice 1370-1644; se integreaza definitiv sudul Manciuriei
- cucerirea manciuriana si dinastia Qing, China traditionala e la maxima expansiune, depasind actualele granite, dar nu se mai prea poate vorbi de apogeu, e de discutat mult; 1644-1750 inflorire, 1750-1830 stagnare si 1830-1911 decadere, pierderi teritoriale, rascoale uriase, cataclisme, opiomanie si semi-colonizare vestica in anumite regiuni
- epoca moderna despre care s-a postat suficient mai sus de catre altii; din 1911 incoace
Colonizarea sudului de catre chinezii de nord e o aventura interesanta a omenirii.
E stiut ca popoare precum birmanezii, vietnamezii, thailandezii si polinezienii traiau in sudul Chinei actuale, si au fost dati afara si impinsi spre sud de catre aceasta expansiune. Se pare ca erau si niste negri pe acolo, ceea ce ar explica haplogrupul K.
Primii care au luat-o spre sud inlocuind negrii -asemanatori aborigenilor australieni- au fost birmanezii prin secolul 3 BC. Totusi n-au migrat toti deodata, migratia ne-incheindu-se decat pe la 900AD sau pe acolo, cand ultimii birmanezi coboara din Yunnan. Thailandezii ajung in Thailanda abia pe la 1300, pana atunci fiind locuita de rude ale cambogienilor, poporul Mon. (Cambogienii par a fi niste amestecuri de galbeni cu negri care vin din India de est) Vietnamezii locuiau, ca si polinezienii, in actualele provincii Fujian, Guangdong si Anhui, si pleaca de acolo intre 250 BC si 250 AD. Vietnamezii nu ocupa sudul tarii lor, populat cu rude de-ale cambogienilor (poporul Champa), decat de pe la 1400 incolo daca bine retin. Delta Mekongului o cuceresc de la cambogieni pe la 1750, iar pe ei ii mananca fripti ... la propriu.

Edited by searcher-star, 01 October 2012 - 08:11.

Eu credeam ca rasa australoida din Indochina a fost inlocuita de rasa galbena mult mai devreme de secolul 3.Prin perioada neolitica(mai degraba mileniul 3-4 bc).

pro-civilizatie, on 01 octombrie 2012 - 09:39, said:

Populatia indochineza era foarte mica, la un milion de insi pe la 1AD.
A ramas mica pana la 1800, cand birmanezi, thailandezi, cambogieni, laotieni, malaezieni si vietnamezi la un loc erau la vreo 12 milioane pe o suprafata cat Europa de Vest.
Posibil ca galbenii sa fi fost deja majoritari in sec.1 dar numai de-a lungul raurilor pe care cultivau orez. Junglele au fost negroide pana hat tarziu, secolele 5-6...
Chinezii au legende despre oameni negri deci disparitia lor n-are cum fi foarte preistorica.

Edited by searcher-star, 01 October 2012 - 09:50.

Care e istoria veche a Chinei?
Teoretic incepe in jurul anului 2800 BC cand traditia plaseaza primii zei-fondatori, primii imparati civilizatori.
In fapt, primele asezari mai importante si metalurgia bronzului dateaza de prin jurul 1500BC iar primele scrieri mai consistente - care sa treaca de amuleta magica - si unelte de bronz aliat cu fier meteoritic semi-lucrat dateaza de pe la 1000BC.
Nu stim decat legende si ecouri despre primii zei-fondatori si dinastiile Xia si Shang. Exista cateva elemente interesante, cum ar fi zeul cerului Pan Gu din oul cosmic, divinitate saturniana foarte similara inclusiv ca nume lui Pan (al gnosticilor, nu al mitologiei clasice grecesti), formarea oamenilor din pamant, cuplul de oameni-sarpe (~serafimi) Fu Xi si Nu Wa, rolul dragonilor in precipitatii si trasarea vailor de rau (iarasi motiv universal), Potopul, eroi care invata oamenii sa faca foc, sa teasa haine, sa cultive pamantul, sa faca irigatii etc.
N-am reusit sa gasesc ceva sa semene a SF de vreun fel cu martieni formatori. E ceva destul de evolutionist, cronicarii spun clar ca la inceput erau triburi, apoi sate, apoi orashele, apoi orase, apoi orase-stat etc. Anumite figuri sunt evident metafore/arhetipuri ale unor fenomene sau entitati interesante si universale dar care clar nu mai au decat mica parte din incarcatura de semnificatii de mai demult.

Istoric, prima cultura de care putem spune mai multe e cultura Zhou, care pe la 1000 ocupa totalitatea campiei de nord-est, lucreaza bronzul aliat cu fier semi-prelucrat, foloseste regulat scrierea si extinzandu-se suficient, se imparte in zeci de orase-stat si principate razboinice. Exista state de cateva sute sau mii de kmp, cu zeci de mii de locuitori, orase aparate de ziduri de pamant batut, de suprafete mari fiindca trebuie sa cuprinda si gradini si livezi, in care marea majoritate inclusiv din mahari traiesc inca in bordeie si colibe de paie si doar familia regala si cele imediat inrudite stau in case de lemn care incep sa dezvolte arhitectura pe care o cunoastem. Spre final majoritatea sta in casele de lemn si pamant clasice, iar maharii in conace cu turn de lemn, cam ca si castelele japoneze de mai tarziu dar in versiune mult redusa.
Estetica e foarte aproape de a japonezilor, lipsesc mobilele si se sta pe rogojini si se foloseste un inventar elementar dar estetic.
Politic, n-au existat niciodata, cu toata formula orasului-stat, experimente gen aristocratie sau republica sau altele asemenea la chinezi. A fost mereu la putere monarhia absoluta, moderata doar de necesitatea aliantelor cu marile familii si pastrarii unui echilibru. Dar cultivarea acestui echilibru nu evolueaza niciodata spre aristocratie, parlamentarism si altele asemenea.
Statele astea se tot bat, si pana la urma se coaguleaza in cateva regate care se razboiesc mult mai masiv intre 600 si 250BC, cand regatul Qin castiga si-i unifica pe toti sub Qin Shi Huangdi, si incepe sa se extinda la sud de fluviul Albastru.
Capitala Xi'an ocupa cam 9 kmp din care palatul 4 kmp. Cam 300.000 locuitori. Roma contemporana ei are cam 20 kmp, si 1,5 milioane.

Cand chinezii au colonizat sudul nu au asimilat ci exterminat bastinasi ?

vladma, on 02 octombrie 2012 - 11:34, said:

Si si. Ca in orice situatie similara. Haplogrupul K prezent intre ei e o dovada de asimilare.
Interesant ca nu avea loc neaparat o sinizare unde ajungeau chinezii.
Era nevoie si de dominatie politica.
Yunnanul, provincie mai mare decat Germania, foarte muntoasa si accidentata, a fost inca din primele secole ale erei noastre un loc de imigratie chineza, multi chinezi fugeau acolo de dezastrele din China. Dar nu-i sinizau pe aia, ci mai degraba ei se aculturau. Unii se pierdeau in tribul in care traiau iar altii formau triburi chineze dar adaptate cultural locului.
De abia odata cu cucerirea mongola a ajuns provincia definitiv sub dominatie chineza. Si de abia pe la 1650 au ajuns chinezii majoritari. Pana la mongoli insa, chinezii n-au avut decat un control intrerupt si partial asupra zonei.

Edited by searcher-star, 02 October 2012 - 12:11.

Stiam ca sudul este mai traditionalist , patrimonialist si mai atasat de Confucianism , nu stiu daca asta e din cauza ca sunt diferiti genetic fata de nord sau doar datorita densitatilor mai mici ale populatiei .

Edited by vladma, 02 October 2012 - 19:26.

vladma, on 02 octombrie 2012 - 19:23, said:

Sudul fiind mai muntos e mai fragmentat si mai izolat la nivel local.
Fiind tara orezului a dezvoltat si o clasa mai numeroasa de mici mosieri iar familiile au pastrat mai bine structura tribala, inclusiv cei veniti din nord au ramas uniti pe triburi, in mare parte.
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O intrebare interesanta: este oare China chiar prima civilizatie in Asia galbena?
Desigur ca chinezii vor zice da, insa au niste concurenti.
Coreenii, unii din ei, vor zice ca nu-i chiar asa.
Au si asiaticii protocronistii lor, si vom adresa si chestiunea foarte urgenta a protocronismului chinez.
Insa deocamdata simt nevoia sa ma aplec asupra celui coreean.
Deci coreenii zic ca de fapt cultura tipica chineza a fost inventata de ei, ca au avut un imperiu numit al Vechiului Joseon, care se intindea din Sumer pana in Kamceatka. La fel ca alti protocronisti vin cu cuvinte comune intre coreeana si sumeriana - da, au si ei asa ceva. Si mai zic ca chinezii is niste sositi mai tardivi care le-au copiat cultura si s-au inmultit mai tare si le-au luat totul.
Intrebarea e, exista vreo sansa sa fie adevarat?
Ei tot vin cu niste harti ale vechiului Joseon de dinainte de a se prabusi sub chinezi, care arata cum ca se intindea in nord-estul Chinei, cuprinzand inclusiv peninsula Shandong, patria lui Confucius.
Ei spun ca monumentele megalitice si alte artefacte le dovedesc dreptatea.
Si e adevarat ca au foarte multi megaliti, fiind pe locul doi dupa litoralul Atlantic, si ca aceasta cultura megalitica e centrata pe peninsula coreeana, nu pe China. E drept ca mai sunt si tot felul de obiecte ritualice si podoabe care la fel, se intind pe pamanturi azi chineze dar epicentrul lor e coreean. Si iar e drept ca intre Shandong si restul Chinei exista un vechi val fortificat pe care l-am notat si eu dinainte de a sti de teoriile astea si nu i-am vazut rostul fiidca e absurd sa separi asa doua zone chinezesti taind campia chineza in doua de la nord la sud. Pe cand daca ar fi fost acolo doua natii diferite, opera respectiva ar capata dintr-o data mult sens.
Cica 40% din megalitii lumii - chiar daca nu-s cei mai mari sau mai elaborati - sunt in Koreea plus inca vreo 10% in provinciile chineze invecinate sau influentate de ea, Japonia de sud-vest plus Siberia estica. Deci avem realmente o cultura megalitica avand un centru coreean, si ocupand o suprafata mare din Asia de Nord-est. Am zis la topicul de civilizatie japoneza despre teoria foarte verosimila a fondarii Japoniei de catre regatul coreean Baekje si despre posibilitatea thalassocratiei Baekje in anii 370-500 AD.
Io zic ca nu putem ignora asa ceva. E prea mare si palpabil ca sa fie ignorat.
Bun, dar inseamna oare asta ca chinezii au furat cultura coreeana? Totusi n-as merge pana acolo. E posibil insa ca, la inceput, sa fi fost doua culturi concurente si inter-influente, care sa-si fi disputat campia de nord-est chineza de azi, si intre care cea chineza sa fi luat mai mare avant la un moment dat si s-o fi incoltit/ingramadit pe cea coreeana in peninsula ei, cel mai probabil candva inainte de 700 BC. Coreenii zic ca Vechiul Joseon n-a fost infrant de chinezi decat undeva pe la 200BC. Dar deja fusesera scosi din campiile chineze de ceva timp.

Pentru cei interesati, se pot oare face conexiuni biblice cu China?
Desigur.
Chinese ancestors came from Red Sea area?
(Eastday.com)
Updated: 2004-10-13 14:21
Amateur historian Su San has created an enormous controversy with claims of Chinese ancestors were from the Red Sea area and human civilization began in the Middle East and North Africa.
These two stunning conclusions have been put forward in two recently published books, and critics and readers have wasted no time in their attack.
"They call my books nonsense," says 40-year-old Su, a Henan Province native. "They just can't bear to think there's a Western ancestor for Chinese."
With a bachelor's degree on English literature and a master's degree on economics, Su previously worked for a foreign company and was also an English teacher.
Two years ago, she quit her managerial job to study history, but not at university, just on the Internet. She published book reviews and essays on cultural study Websites.
In her first book, "A Conjecture on Sanxingdui Civilization," she boldly concludes that the Sanxingdui ruins came from Red Sea civilization. Since excavation in 1929 in Sichuan Province, the Sanxingdui ruins has been the topic of hot debate because of antiques discovered there are exotic and unusual.
In her second book, "Toward the East," she traced the origin of Chinese civilization through the Old Testament of the Bible.
"The Bible is a serious record of a royal family, who colonized around the Earth with their wealth and wisdom," she says. "I believe Chinese ancestors were Semites, Israelis and from other Middle Eastern nations. The Chinese people's respect for chastity and the elderly originates from primitive Judaism."
She even found interesting relations between the earliest Chinese dynasties and the Bible.
According to her study, Hagar, wife of Abraham, established the Xia Dynasty (c. 21st century-16th century BC). His grandson Esau's offsprings built the Shang Dynasty (c. 16th century-11th century BC ), and the name of the Zhou Dynasty (c. 11th century-221 BC) originated from the word "Jew."
Su emphasizes she has more freedom than traditional Chinese archeologists and historians whom she claims work in a rigid style.
"I have a free mind and hate restrain," Su says. "I have no background in education on archeology or ancient cultural study. This allows me to think outside the traditional stereotype and discover the real origins of Chinese."
Su grew up in a small mountainous village near Luoyang of Henan Province, the ancient capital of the Zhou Dynasty.
"When I left my home to study English in a university in big city, life was such a big contrast," says Su. "I had many interests but my favorite was history. At university I often lay on the lawn to appreciate the night sky, which helped me built up my view of the world."
Her first book only took two months to complete.
"I studied the Websites of museums, institutes and online libraries. It's efficient and quick," she says.
But few experts agree with her claims.
"Until now most Sanxingdui antiques belonged to Chinese local civilization and mainstream experts believe Sanxingdui is still a Chinese civilization with only small foreign influences," says He Yun'ao, director of Cultural and Natural Relics Research Institute at Nanjing University.
He explains that most jade and pottery antiques discovered in Sanxingdui bear strong Chinese characters. But some bronze antiques are different from traditional Chinese civilizations from along the Yellow River.
"This probably shows the variety of Chinese civilizations, which are not only from along the Yellow River," He says. "In Sanxingdui, there's a road to India. But since there's no records for the area, archeology cannot answer the question. Gene analysis can tell the truth but until now no human remains have been unearthed there."
Professor Jiang Xiaoyuan, dean of the Human Studies Institute at Shanghai Jiao Tong University, says Su's study can be hard to swallow.
"Her opinions are radical and far from traditional research, which probably will be accepted after 100 years," says Jiang. "I agree with parts of her research about Sanxingdui."
But most Chinese historians are not even close to considering her research.
"She hasn't got a historical education but obviously she has done a lot of library work," comments Jiang. "Her books are far better than amateur nonsense. I suggest she send her articles to professional magazines such as 'Historical Study,' which will draw attention. I guess most experts won't even glance at her books."
Su's study may not be traditional but she says it is informed evidence-based research and a new way of thinking.
Just like the old Chinese saying, "throw out bricks to draw jades." "I wish my books were bricks, attracting experts' attention and finally discover genuine jade," she says.

Poate ca textul de mai sus e doar descrierea unei aiureli a unei originale.
Dar e de notat ca vine totusi in sensul anumitor elemente de care se poate tine cont.
Aici trebuie sa amintim si legendele japoneze despre stramosii lor Ezo si Idumo care vin de la Yamashiro - adica Esau/Edom de la Muntele Seir. Interesant ca Biblia vorbeste despre China ca despre Gog din tara lui Magog. Unii vor contesta asta dar pana prin secolul 19 nimeni nu chestiona interpretarea asta.
A existat mult timp un regat coreean numit Goguryeo.
Gog e un urmas al lui Edom, fratele lui Iacob. Magog e stramosul galbenilor. Deci avem ideea unei populatii edomite, europoide, care si-a pus amprenta asupra unei populatii mongoloide.
Interesant ca genetic barbatii chinezi sunt mai mult O adica aproape de R-ul european, pe cand femeile sunt mai mult M, D, C fiind mai aproape de L-ul african.
Ne putem inchipui o populatie mai aproape de europoizi care intra intr-o zona mai aproape de negroizi, si ca din asta rezulta o a treia varianta rasiala.
Avem vreo urma a unor europoizi in China?
Desigur. Toata lumea stie de mumiile din Tarim. Dar alea-s inca destul de la marginea sferei de influenta chineze.
Putem insa vorbi de regele roscat cu ochi albastri Sun Quan din secolul 3 AD. Sau de sotia roscata cu pistrui a marelui strateg Zhugge Liang tot din secolul 3. Am vorbit de ei la civilizatie japoneza, ca inca n-aveam topic centrat pe China.
Atentie, genul asta de insi clar era considerat rar si ciudat in secolul 3, ca dovada ca sotia lui Zhugge ramane mult timp fara pretendenti, pana s-o ia el. Insa iata ca avem europoizi, chiar daca rari, dar influenti din moment ce-i vedem in sanul elitei si chiar ocupand tronuri in perioadele de faramitare.

Edited by searcher-star, 03 October 2012 - 08:14.