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Forta misterioasa incetineste sonda Nasa in spatiu

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#19
theMisuser

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View Postfloryyn, on 25th September 2010, 09:40, said:

Lăsând glumele și controversele metafizice la o parte, nu e posibil ca sonda să fi întâlnit un nor de praf stelar ceva și astfel să fi încetinit mai mult decât se așteptau ăia?
Posibile sunt multe.. dar dupa cum zic ei, densitatea de materie in zonele alea nu e suficienta pentru un asa efect. Deci e najpa oricum o iei. Ori stim aiurea cati atomi/m^3 sunt in zona ori 'za darc fors' smth.

#20
mviorel

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View PostCourage, on 21st September 2010, 23:12, said:

IZ za daaark force....
+1 O fi ala negru care respira greu, sta la panda.

Edited by mviorel, 25 September 2010 - 13:28.


#21
taranu

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Am citit doar fugitiv articolul postat de the Misurer.Din primele cuvinte eu am inteles ca sonda ar fi trasa inapoi nu doar frinata.Probabil forta gravitationala care actioneaza asupra sondei se manifesta altfel in afara sistemului decit in interiorul lui in cazul de fata sistemul nostru solar.Sa nu ne aruncam in calcule hazardate si sa asteptam sa vedem daca hair stylisti si oamenii de servici de la nasa ajung la acceasi concluzie. :naughty:

#22
blimpyway

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masa lunii e 1/30milioane din cea a sistemului solar, iar forta asta daca zic ei ca e 1/10 miliarde ( de 300 ori mai slaba decat echivalentul masei lunare) pai atunci...  

E suficient sa le fi scapat corpuri insumand o masa de 300 ori mai mica decat a lunii pe undeva in afara sistemului solar si planetelor  pentru a obtine o astfel de incetinire.  

sau 1/10 miliarde eroare in masurarea masei (si distributiei acesteia in) sistemul solar. Nu mi se pare mare mister.

Edited by blimpyway, 26 September 2010 - 14:52.


#23
SuperDuper

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Vad ca nimeni nu da click pe linkul din wikipedia, toti va referiti la un articol scris de un gazetar... Situatia nu este limitata numai la sondele Pioneer si a fost luata in discutie la cateva intruniri stiintifice si este tratata foarte serios.

Quote

Proposed explanations
A number of proposed explanations for acceleration towards the sun have been pursued. These are defined as the following: observational errors, an unaccounted for real deceleration, and explanations that would essentially be New Physics.
Observational errors
The possibility of observational errors, which include measurement and computational errors, has been advanced as a reason for interpreting the data as an anomaly. Hence, this would result in approximation and statistical errors. However, further analysis has determined that significant errors are not likely because seven independent analyses have shown the existence of the anomaly (Pioneer anomaly) as of March 2010.[6]
Recording errors
The effect is so small that it could be a statistical anomaly caused by differences in the way data were collected over the lifetime of the probes. Numerous changes were made over this period, including changes in the receiving instruments, reception sites, data recording systems and recording formats.
The Planetary Society announced on 1 June 2006 that 30 years of Pioneer data had been saved. It announced on 28 March 2007 that analysis of the data was underway. On March 19, 2008, it announced that one source of acceleration, uneven thermal radiation, had been found to explain some of the deviation, but not all.[7][8][9]
The deceleration model
It has been viewed as possible that a real deceleration is not accounted for in the current model for several reasons.
First, it is possible that deceleration is caused by gravitational forces from unidentified sources such as the Kuiper belt or dark matter. However, this acceleration does not show up in the orbits of the outer planets, so any generic gravitational answer would need to violate the equivalence principle (see modified inertia below). Likewise, the anomaly does not appear in the orbits of Neptune's moons, challenging the possibility that the Pioneer anomaly may be an unconventional gravitational phenomenon based on range from the Sun.[10][11]
Second, the cause could be drag from the interplanetary medium, including dust, solar wind and cosmic rays. However, the measured densities are too small to cause the effect.
Third, gas leaks, including helium from the spacecrafts' radioisotope thermoelectric generators (RTGs) has been viewed as possible causes.
Fourth, a real deceleration not accounted for in the current model could result from radiation pressure of sunlight, the spacecraft's radio transmissions, or asymmetrical thermal radiation of the heat from the spacecraft. Possibilities include the asymmetrical radiation of heat from the RTGs (See Radioisotope rocket) or the spacecraft electronics. Additionally, even if the RTGs themselves radiate symmetrically, some of their radiation will reflect from the back of the spacecraft?s dish-like main antenna, causing a recoil like sunlight striking a solar sail.
However, the radiation pressure of sunlight is too small at this distance, and points into the wrong direction. The same applies to the spacecraft's radio emissions. The asymmetrical radiation of heat remains a prime suspect, as presented at the second ISSI meeting in Berne, Feb 2007. A presentation at the APS April 2008 meeting suggests that differential heating may account for as much as one third of the observed acceleration.[12]
Finally, a real deceleration not accounted for in the current model could be from electromagnetic forces due to an electric charge on the spacecraft.
New physics
Because the "Pioneer anomaly" does not show up as an effect on the planets, Anderson et al. speculated that this would be interesting if this was new physics. Later, with the doppler shifted signal confirmed, the team again speculated that one explanation may lie with new physics, if not some unknown systemic explanation.[13]
Hence, new physics would take into consideration at least one of three possibilities: clock acceleration, a modification of the law of gravity, or modified inertia.
[edit]Clock acceleration
Clock acceleration is an alternate explanation to anomalous acceleration of the spacecraft towards the Sun. This theory takes notice of an expanding universe, which creates an increasing background 'gravitational potential'. The increased gravitational potential then accelerates cosmological time. It is proposed that this particular effect causes the observed deviation from predicted trajectories and velocities of Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11.[13]
From their data, Anderson's team deduced a steady frequency drift of 1.5 Hz over 8 years. This could be mapped on to a clock acceleration theory, which means all clocks would be changing in relation to a constant acceleration. In other words, that there would be a nonuniformity of time. Moreover, for such a distortion related to time, Anderson's team reviewed several models in which time distortion as a phenomenon is considered. They arrived at the "clock acceleration" model after completion of the review. Although the best model adds a quadratic term to defined International Atomic Time, the team encountered problems with this theory. This then led to non-uniform time in relation to a constant acceleration, as the most likely theory.[note 1][13]
Definition of gravity modified
The theory MOND (Modified Newtonian Dynamics) proposes that the force of gravity deviates from the traditional Newtonian value to a very different force law at very low accelerations on the order of 10?11 m/s2.[14] Given the low accelerations placed on the spacecraft while in the outer solar system, MOND may be in effect, modifying the normal gravitational equations.
Definition of inertia modified
MOND can also be interpreted as a modification of inertia, perhaps due to an interaction with vacuum energy and such a trajectory-dependent theory could account for the different accelerations apparently acting on the orbiting planets and the Pioneer craft on their escape trajectories.[15] More recently, a model for modified inertia using Unruh radiation and a Hubble-scale Casimir effect has been proposed to explain the Pioneer anomaly,[16] and a possible test for evidence of modified inertia on Earth has been proposed.[17] It has also been suggested that a modification of inertia can explain the flyby anomaly.[18]
New cosmology
Swedish-American physicist C. Johan Masreliez offers a novel cosmological basis for the Pioneer anomaly. In an article published in September 2005 in Astrophysics and Space Science, he argues that his "Scale Expanding Cosmos" (SEC) theory predicts that, due to spacetime curvature within the solar system and the way the Pioneer data was measured, the "anomalous" acceleration should be  which is close to the measured value. The SEC theory is controversial, since it refutes the Big Bang hypothesis, offering alternative explanations for the cosmic microwave background radiation and the abundance of light elements. For the cosmological redshift it features an intrinsic tired light mechanism with time dilation in no need of an accelerating universe.[2][19]
Further research avenues
It is possible, but not proven, that this anomaly is linked to the flyby anomaly.[20] Although the circumstances are very different (planet flyby vs. deep space cruise), the overall effect is similar - a small but unexplained velocity change is observed on top of a much larger conventional gravitational acceleration.
The Pioneer spacecraft are no longer providing new data, (the last contact having been on 23 January 2003)[21] and Galileo was deliberately burned up in Jupiter's atmosphere at the end of its mission. So far, attempts to use data from current missions such as Cassini have not yielded any conclusive results. There are several remaining options for further research:
Further analysis of the retrieved Pioneer data.
The New Horizons spacecraft to Pluto is spin-stabilised for much of its cruise, and there is a possibility that it can be used to investigate the anomaly. New Horizons may have the same problem that precluded good data from the Cassini mission - its RTG is mounted close to the spacecraft body, so thermal radiation from it, bouncing off the spacecraft, may produce a systematic thrust of a not-easily predicted magnitude, several times as large as the Pioneer effect. Nevertheless efforts are underway to study the non-gravimetric accelerations on the spacecraft, in the hopes of having them well modeled for the long cruise to Pluto after the Jupiter fly-by that occurred in February 2007. In particular, despite any large systematic bias from the RTG, the 'onset' of the anomaly at or near the orbit of Saturn might be observed.[22]
A dedicated mission has also been proposed.[23] Such a mission would probably need to surpass 200 AU from the Sun in a hyperbolic escape orbit.
Observations of asteroids around 20 AU may provide insights if the anomaly's cause is gravitational.[24][25]
In November 2009, ESA's Rosetta spacecraft measured its velocity during flyby to within a few millimeters per second in an effort to explain the flyby anomaly.[26] However, no anomaly was found on this most recent flyby.[27]
Meetings and conferences about the anomaly
A meeting was held at the University of Bremen in 2004 to discuss the Pioneer anomaly.[28]
The Pioneer Explorer Collaboration was formed to study the Pioneer Anomaly and has hosted three meetings (2005, 2007, and 2008) at International Space Science Institute in Berne, Switzerland to discuss the anomaly, and discuss possible means for resolving the source.[29]

Edited by SuperDuper, 26 September 2010 - 15:00.


#24
soarce

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Este interesant de studiat anomalia sondei Pioneer 10, problema este ca s-au avansat mai multe ipoteze care nu pot fi respinse asa usor. Probabil viitoarele sonde vor avea in program si studiul unei posibile anomalii a traiectoriei.

#25
taranu

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Eu la asa ceva m-am gindit;Definition of gravity modified
The theory MOND (Modified Newtonian Dynamics) proposes that the force of gravity deviates from the traditional Newtonian value to a very different force law at very low accelerations on the order of 10?11 m/s2.[14] Given the low accelerations placed on the spacecraft while in the outer solar system, MOND may be in effect, modifying the normal gravitational equations.

#26
blimpyway

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View PostSuperDuper, on 26th September 2010, 15:59, said:

Vad ca nimeni nu da click pe linkul din wikipedia, toti va referiti la un articol scris de un gazetar...
mdah, gazetaru da cu batu in balta.... cand zice ca-i o acceleratie de 10 miliarde ori mai mica decat cea gravitationala am crezut ca se refera la acceleratia gravitationala ce actioneaza asupra aceleiasi sonde si nu cea de la ... suprafata pamantului! Cat de antropocentric.. diferenta de vreo 10^6. Mai lipsea sa ne spuna la cati pasi distanta este de pamant

Edited by blimpyway, 26 September 2010 - 15:37.


#27
alinarms

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View PosttheMisuser, on 21st September 2010, 22:57, said:

Mysterious force holds back Nasa probe in deep space

A space probe launched 30 years ago has come under the influence of a force that has baffled scientists and could rewrite the laws of physics.

Researchers say Pioneer 10, which took the first close-up pictures of Jupiter before leaving our solar system in 1983, is being pulled back to the sun by an unknown force. The effect shows no sign of getting weaker as the spacecraft travels deeper into space, and scientists are considering the possibility that the probe has revealed a new force of nature.

Dr Philip Laing, a member of the research team tracking the craft, said: "We have examined every mechanism and theory we can think of and so far nothing works.

"If the effect is real, it will have a big impact on cosmology and spacecraft navigation," said Dr Laing, of the Aerospace Corporation of California.

Pioneer 10 was launched by Nasa on March 2 1972, and with Pioneer 11, its twin, revolutionised astronomy with detailed images of Jupiter and Saturn. In June 1983, Pioneer 10 passed Pluto, the most distant planet in our solar system.

Both probes are now travelling at 27,000mph towards stars that they will encounter several million years from now. Scientists are continuing to monitor signals from Pioneer 10, which is more than seven billion miles from Earth.

Research to be published shortly in The Physical Review, a leading physics journal, will show that the speed of the two probes is being changed by about 6 mph per century - a barely-perceptible effect about 10 billion times weaker than gravity.

Scientists initially suspected that gas escaping from tiny rocket motors aboard the probes, or heat leaking from their nuclear power plants might be responsible. Both have now been ruled out. The team says no current theories explain why the force stays constant: all the most plausible forces, from gravity to the effect of solar radiation, decrease rapidly with distance.

The bizarre behaviour has also eliminated the possibility that the two probes are being affected by the gravitational pull of unknown planets beyond the solar system.

Assertions by some scientists that the force is due to a quirk in the Pioneer probes have also been discounted by the discovery that the effect seems to be affecting Galileo and Ulysses, two other space probes still in the solar system. Data from these two probes suggests the force is of the same strength as that found for the Pioneers.

Dr Duncan Steel, a space scientist at Salford University, says even such a weak force could have huge effects on a cosmic scale. "It might alter the number of comets that come towards us over millions of years, which would have consequences for life on Earth. It also raises the question of whether we know enough about the law of gravity."

Until 1988, Pioneer 10 was the most remote object made by man - a distinction now held by Voyager 1. Should Pioneer 10 make contact with alien life, it carries a gold-plated aluminium plaque on which the figures of a man and woman are shown to scale, along with a map showing its origin that Nasa calls "the cosmic equivalent of a message in a bottle".



S-auzim. Ce este ? :)
YOUR CREATOR. just kidding.... this wouldn`t suffice.and it depends on your affiliation to religion. so, it`s just that force that will always overcome mankind. BECAUSE MAN DOESN`T UNDERSTAND THAT HE IS SO SMALL AND THAT HE IS A SMALL PART OF AN IMMENSE UNIVERSE AND NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES HE WILL ALWAYS BE INSIDE THE UNIVERSE BUT SOMEHOW OUTSIDE IT.

am resuit sa incetinim moartea, dar nu o sa o invingem. cum crezi ca poti tine piept universului cand universul e atat de mare si puternic si tu atat de mic si nesemnificativ? universul isi are propriile legi independente de creierele noastre mici care nu pot percepe imensa putere ale legilor ce nu pot fi controlate de muritori. pentru ca suntem muritori in comparatie cu universul ce renaste sub alte forme mereu.

View Postalinarms, on 3rd January 2011, 22:15, said:

YOUR CREATOR. just kidding.... this wouldn`t suffice.and it depends on your affiliation to religion. so, it`s just that force that will always overcome mankind. BECAUSE MAN DOESN`T UNDERSTAND THAT HE IS SO SMALL AND THAT HE IS A SMALL PART OF AN IMMENSE UNIVERSE AND NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES HE WILL ALWAYS BE INSIDE THE UNIVERSE BUT SOMEHOW OUTSIDE IT.

am resuit sa incetinim moartea, dar nu o sa o invingem. cum crezi ca poti tine piept universului cand universul e atat de mare si puternic si tu atat de mic si nesemnificativ? universul isi are propriile legi independente de creierele noastre mici care nu pot percepe imensa putere ale legilor ce nu pot fi controlate de muritori. pentru ca suntem muritori in comparatie cu universul ce renaste sub alte forme mereu.
errare humanum est. ori legile fizicii  pot fi gresite ori cei care au lansat sonda au gresit ceva ori nu a gresit nimeni nimic si cosmosul isi urmeaza propriile legi si noi ne batem capul cu tampenii din astea cand alte probleme sunt mai importante. mii si milioane de posibilitati.

#28
Gurban_Dan

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Foarte intersanta discutia :coolspeak:
Unele replici m-au destins,..... :thumbup:

View PostCourage, on 21st September 2010, 23:12, said:

IZ za daaark force....
  :coolspeak:

View Postmork, on 22nd September 2010, 14:21, said:

Pai tu stii ca particulele rezultate din coliziunile in accelerator (ca tot vorbeai de LHC) NU pot fi observate? Dar se pot pune in evidenta urmele lasate de acestea.
Chiar foarte corect.

View Posttomaso, on 22nd September 2010, 16:26, said:

E clar.
Teoria eterului se verifică.
Daca se verifica ce aplicatii practice poate avea, ca altfel nu o cred sau o consider inutile.


Eu cred ca sunt erori de masura.
Nu stiu cum au masurat, dar aici cred ca e problema.
Au masurat asta in ani diferiti ? Pentru ca Pamantul in miscarea lui de revolutie,..

iar problema eventualiror nori de gaze, ei mult mai repede strica masuratiare decat traectoria.

View Postfloryyn, on 22nd September 2010, 08:30, said:

Ar fi funny să se pomenească ăștia cu sonda înapoi, întoarsă așa, ca o mingiucă de ping-pong ricoșând de perete...
  :thumbup:

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