De ce sunt unii nostalgici

 corleone2023, on 25 decembrie 2023 - 16:38, said:

evolutia demografica a URSS:
Ianuarie 1920 : 137.727.000
Ianuarie 1926 : 148.656.000
Ianuarie 1937: 162.500.000
Ianuarie 1939: 168.524.000
Iunie 1941: 196.716.000
Ianuarie 1946: 170.548.000
Ianuarie 1951: 182.321.000
Cand zici ca au murit cei 60 de milioane de sovietici ucisi de comunisti? Singura scadere demografica este intre 1941 si 1946, cand URSS a pierdut 27 de milioane de locuitori. Dar au fost din cauza razboiului

Nu te poti baza pe cifrele declarate de un stat mincinos cum era URSS, doar nu erau prosti sa publice cifrele reale cand ei tocmai ii minteau pe intelectualii din Vest (idiotii utili) cat de minunta este viata la colhoz. Uite aici o lista de estimari de pe un site neomarxist:

Estimates
Cover of the first edition of The Black Book of Communism
According to historian Klas-Göran Karlsson, discussions of the number of victims of communist regimes have been "extremely extensive and ideologically biased."[49] Any attempt to estimate a total number of killings under communist regimes depends greatly on definitions,[50] ranging from a low of 10–20 million to as high as 148 million.[51][52] Political scientist Rudolph Rummel and historian Mark Bradley have written that, while the exact numbers have been in dispute, the order of magnitude is not.[18][53] Professor Barbara Harff says that Rummel and other genocide scholars are focused primarily on establishing patterns and testing various theoretical explanations of genocides and mass killings. They work with large data sets that describe mass mortality events globally and have to rely on selective data provided by country experts; researchers cannot expect absolute precision, and it is not required as a result of their work.[54]
Any attempt to estimate a total number of killings under communist regimes depends greatly on definitions. Historian Alexander Dallin argued that the idea to group together different countries such as Afghanistan and Hungary have no adequate explanation.[55] During the Cold War era, some authors (Todd Culberston), dissidents (Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn), and anti-communists in general have attempted to make both country-specific and global estimates. Scholars of communism have mainly focused on individual countries, and genocide scholars have attempted to provide a more global perspective, while maintaining that their goal is not reliability but establishing patterns.[54] Scholars of communism have debated on estimates for the Soviet Union, not for all communist regimes, an attempt which was popularized by the introduction to The Black Book of Communism which was controversial.[55] Among them, Soviet specialists Michael Ellman and J. Arch Getty have criticized the estimates for relying on émigré sources, hearsay, and rumor as evidence,[56] and cautioned that historians should instead utilize archive material.[57] Such scholars distinguish between historians who base their research on archive materials, and those whose estimates are based on witnesses evidence and other data that is unreliable.[58] Soviet specialist Stephen G. Wheatcroft says that historians relied on Solzhenitsyn to support their higher estimates but research in the state archives vindicated the lower estimates, and that the popular press has continued to include serious errors that should not be cited, or relied on, in academia.[59] Rummel was also another widely used and cited source[60] but not reliable about estimates.[54]

Notable estimate attempts include the following:[60]
In 1993, Zbigniew Brzezinski, former National Security Advisor to Jimmy Carter, wrote that "the failed effort to build communism in the twentieth century consumed the lives of almost 60,000,000."[61]
In 1994, Rummel's book Death by Government included about 110 million people, foreign and domestic, killed by communist democide from 1900 to 1987.[62] This total excluded deaths from the Great Chinese Famine of 1958–1961 due to Rummel's then belief that "although Mao's policies were responsible for the famine, he was misled about it, and finally when he found out, he stopped it and changed his policies."[63][64] Rummel would later revise his estimate from 110 million to about 148 million due to additional information about Mao's culpability in the Great Chinese Famine from Mao: The Unknown Story, including Jon Halliday and Jung Chang's estimated 38 million famine deaths.[63][64]
In 2004, historian Tomislav Dulić criticized Rummel's estimate of the number killed in Tito's Yugoslavia as an overestimation based on the inclusion of low-quality sources, and stated that Rummel's other estimates may suffer from the same problem if he used similar sources for them.[65] Rummel responded with a critique of Dulić's analysis.[66] Karlsson says that Rummel's thesis of "extreme intentionality in Mao" for the famine is "hardly an example of a serious and empirically-based writing of history",[67] and describes Rummel's 61,911,000 estimate for the Soviet Union as being based on "an ideological preunderstanding and speculative and sweeping calculations".[68]
In 1997, historian Stéphane Courtois's introduction to The Black Book of Communism, an impactful yet controversial[55] work written about the history of communism in the 20th century,[69] gave a "rough approximation, based on unofficial estimates". The subtotals listed by Courtois added up to 94.36 million killed.[70] Nicolas Werth and Jean-Louis Margolin, contributing authors to the book, criticized Courtois as obsessed with reaching a 100 million overall total.[71]
In his foreword to the 1999 English edition, Martin Malia wrote that "a grand total of victims variously estimated by contributors to the volume at between 85 million and 100 million."[72] Historian Michael David-Fox states that Malia is able to link disparate regimes, from radical Soviet industrialists to the anti-urbanists of the Khmer Rouge, under the guise of a "generic communism" category "defined everywhere down to the common denominator of party movements founded by intellectuals."[73] Courtois' attempt to equate Nazism and communist regimes was not fruitful on both scientific and moral grounds, because such comparisons are generally controversial.[74]
In 2005, professor Benjamin Valentino stated that the number of non-combatants killed by communist regimes in the Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia alone ranged from a low of 21 million to a high of 70 million.[75]
In 2010, professor of economics Steven Rosefielde wrote in Red Holocaust that the internal contradictions of communist regimes caused the killing of approximately 60 million people and perhaps tens of millions more.[76]
In 2012, academic Alex J. Bellamy wrote that a "conservative estimate puts the total number of civilians deliberately killed by communists after the Second World War between 6.7 million and 15.5 million people, with the true figure probably much higher."[77]
In 2014, professor of Chinese politics Julia Strauss wrote that while there was the beginning of a scholarly consensus on figures of around 20 million killed in the Soviet Union and 2–3 million in Cambodia, there was no such consensus on numbers for China.[78]
In 2017, historian Stephen Kotkin wrote in The Wall Street Journal that 65 million people died prematurely under communist regimes according to demographers, and those deaths were a result of "mass deportations, forced labor camps and police-state terror" but mostly "from starvation as a result of its cruel projects of social engineering."[79][80]


Evident ca cifrele reale nu vor fi aflate niciodata, dar sa vii si sa sustii ca comunistii nu au fost cei mai mari criminali este deja sub orice critica si riscam sa repetam istoria.

 Labargo, on 27 decembrie 2023 - 13:42, said:

aham.. sa pui si harta teritoriilor care insumau respectivele populatii. Se stie ca rusii au pierdut cam 20 de milioane de soldati in WW2.
Iar cifrele de recensamant rusesti sunt apa de ploaie.
Si cum au fost rusii 182 de milioane, daca acuma abea sunt 146 de milioane?

https://en.m.wikiped...phics_of_Russia

Cifrele tale sunt departe de cele pe care le gaseste google la prima cautare

[ https://i.postimg.cc/Jny3NsqH/Screenshot-20231227-185611-Opera-beta.jpg - Pentru incarcare in pagina (embed) Click aici ]

Edited by tfmercedez, 27 December 2023 - 18:57.

 corleone2023, on 27 decembrie 2023 - 16:15, said:

1. cifrele sunt luate de pe wikipedia https://ro.wikipedia...iunii_Sovietice
2. nu am sustinut ca nu ar fi cei mai mari criminali, ci ca numerele vehiculate, de 10, 20, 40 sau "60 de milioane dupa unele surse" sunt aberante si sunt contrazise de evolutia populatiei in URSS
Sa spui ca au fost omorati 60 de milioane de rusi din 140 de milioane e o chestie pe care nu o va crede nimeni

 tfmercedez, on 27 decembrie 2023 - 18:55, said:

Cifrele sunt luate tot de pe wikipedia, doar ca sunt pentru intreg URSS, nu doar pentru Rusia https://ro.wikipedia...iunii_Sovietice
Dar, pe cifrele tale, 93 mil in 1926, 100 mil 1930, cate zeci de milioane au omorat comunistii? ))))

 Labargo, on 28 decembrie 2023 - 17:30, said:

La postul numarul #128 am postat ceva informatie, vezi acolo ceva cifre vehiculate de unii care au studiat problema. Mint aia? Nu stim sigur, dar daca consideram ca aia mint atunci putem spune ca minte toata lumea, inclusiv in ceea ce priveste crimele comise de nazisti. Cum ar fi sa venim acum si sa contestam pe acelasi principiu ca nu prea au murit evrei?

N-ar da prea bine, nu?

Desi sunt sigur ca arhivele oficiale au subestimat mult cifra, chiar si cifra aia sunestimata e de ajuns ca sa putem spune ca reghimul comunist a fost de departe cel mai ucifas din istorie. Si asta fara sa tinem cont de crimele lui Mao, pentru ca arhivele chineze nu sunt inca desecretizate complet.

 pufonel, on 28 decembrie 2023 - 22:56, said:

Discutia a pornit de la faptul ca doar nazismul a fost condamnat si interzis, nu si comunismul.
Si explicatia este ca nazistii glorificau ura de rasa, doreau purificarea rasei, avand un dusman anume, evreii.
Pe cand comunistii nu aveau ca dusman un popor anume. Ei au persecutat si ucis oamenii care se opuneau regimului comunist, colectivizarii etc.
cat despre arhive oficiale... nu am vazut citate arhive oficiale ci doar "unele surse"

Esti fenomenal, pai tocmai ca nazistii aveau mai putini dusmani in timp ce la comunisti dusman putea fi oricine indiferent de rasa sau etnie. Acesta este si motivul pentru care comunistii au produs mai multe victime, la ei oricine era un potential dusman in timp ce la nazisti numarul de dusmani era finit.

Faptul ca comunismul nu este incriminat reprezinta o crima in sine la adresa umanitatii.

E corecta ultima afirmatie din postul de mai sus. Comunismul a "beneficiat" de o presa mai buna. Inca din anii 20-30 ai secolului trecut, Stalin a platit multi scriitori si universitari din vest, in special francezi, dar nu numai, sa glorifice "mareata oranduire" cu egalitate, byunastarte bla bla, tot arsenalul de minciuni. Daca cititi autobiografia lui Nikos Kazantzakis "Raport catre El Greco", sa vedeti ce-l pupa in partea dorsala pe tatucu', mai-mai sa-l considere al doilea Mesia

Din pacate, chiar si dupa ce s-a aflat de nenorocirile acestui regim, in special din cartea Arhipelagul Gulag a lui Soljenitin, intelighentia occidentala era atat de indoctrinata (uneori chiar platita) incat a minimalizat ororile comunismului.

Iar in ultimii ani, dupa ce a cazut comunismul in est, partidele comuniste s-au reinventat, au devenit "de centru dreapta moidern" si au tras dupa ele si partidele traditionale catre stanga (vezi multe politici de sorginte comunista ale Angelei Merkel). Iar cine nu zice ca ei, e populist si iliberal.

 Labargo, on 28 decembrie 2023 - 17:33, said:

tot de pe wiki,  ca atat avem la indemna

Quote

https://en.m.wikiped...r_Joseph_Stalin

Astia sunt doar sub regimul lui Stalin pana in anii '50.

https://en.m.wikiped...vo_firing_range

The 17th Congress of the UCP estimated that the USSRs population was 168 million in 1933, and predicted that it would grow to 180 million by 1937, yet the 1937 census registered only 162 million people, a decrease in population. The mortality rate was double the average one than in Europe at that time.

Edited by tfmercedez, 30 December 2023 - 01:08.

 tfmercedez, on 30 decembrie 2023 - 01:19, said:

In 1932-1933 s-a murit de foame peste tot in lume, nu doar in URSS, deci e o exagerare sa pui in carca lui Stalin 5-6 milioane de morti de foame.
In concluzie: 3,3 milioane, din care 1 milion cu intentie si 2,3 milioane din neglijenta si iresponsabilitate
Deci mai putini decat in cazul evreilor omorati de nazisti. Asta nu face din comunism un regim tolerabil.
Dar nu e discutia cine a omorat mai multi, e vorba despre ideologie, nazismul isi propunea sa "purifice rasa" prin uciderea evreilor. Comunismul nu avea o astfel de tinta (un popor anume).

Astazi este 1 ianuarie. In Bucuresti cel putin, s-au afisat impozitele locale. Le-am platit stand pe veceu prin ghiseul.ro ca orice cetatean onorabil si cat de cat in ton cu vremurile.
Pe 3 ianuarie inainte sa apara zorile o sa vedeti o gramada cetateni care or sa sa se inghesuie la coada, or sa faca liste cu care a fost primul, or sa vocifereze sa se deschida mai multe ghisee. Desigur o sa li se zica din in ce mai strident ca pot sa plateasca la aparatele de care se sprijina, la posta, la benzinariile OMV, la alte aparate din centrele comerciale sau "onlain". Nu e nicio graba pana la 31 martie se poate lua bonificatia si se poate plati pana pe 31 decembrie 2024. Dar nu, nu vor asculta, vor sta cranceni in frig, la coada. Duceti-va si intrebati-i pe ei de nostalgii , veti primi raspunsuri interesante

Edited by Kokoshmare, 01 January 2024 - 11:45.

 Labargo, on 30 decembrie 2023 - 13:07, said:

Nope.