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Originea românilor

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#487
Naga

Naga

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View PostDiogene, on Oct 22 2005, 21:50, said:

"În Dobrogea, la 1880, populația românească nu depășea 28 % din total" (citat închis). Restul erau turci-tătari, greci, bugari, evrei. Chestia cu majoritatea relativă este chiar relativă, în fond toți ăștia erau probabil mai încântați să aparțină de Turcia sau măcar de Bulgaria. Și erau 72%!!! Și nu uit de "eforturile " guvernului român de-a prezenta provincia maritimă ca românească, un avanpost al românimii din Balcani. Dacă ești curios găsești un material extrem de crud la http://orthodoxempir...php?t=8&start=0

Dobrogea a fost o falnică provincie romano-greacă cu un destin la fel de tragic, dacă ne raportăm exclusiv la romani. Dacă ne raportăm la tătari, tragicul se transformă în comic.

  Lipsesc din enumerarea populatiilor din Dobrogea prezentata de tine rusii lipoveni si ucrainenii. Intr-adevar, romanii cam lipseau din zona in 1878 si a fost nevoie de incurajari ale Guvernului de atunci pentru a repopula cu romani zonele ramase pustii dupa retragerea unei parti din populatia turco-tatara.
  Si fiindca sunt pe jumatate lipovean si ca sa-l intarat un pic pe rakoczy( ;)  :peacefingers: ), uite ca ma apuc si eu sa postez cate ceva despre ei. Ce, numai secuii, pe langa romani, sa tot apara pe topicurile astea? ;)

"FILIP IPATIOV

"BABES-BOLYAI" UNIVERSITY OF CLUJ-NAPOCA

Territory and Religion: The Ethnical Minority of Russians-Lipovenians in Romania

Lipovenians' existence on Romania soil is almost exclusively associated with persecutions of religion nature that aroused in Russia during the second half of the XVII-th century. It appears though, that a social cause is added to this one (somehow ignored so far), if we are to consider the life of the Russian peasant during the first half of the millenium. Yet, the moment of Lipovenians' emigration and settlement in Romania is associated with the reforms initiated by patriarch Nikon, within the Russian Orthodox Church, in the year 1654.

The Schism of Russian Orthodox Church and the Schismatic

Thou, dissentions also existed before the XVII-Th century, the Russian Church had preserved a certain unity, even if not real. The changing point seemed to be the enthroning of patriarch Nikon as the head of the Russian Orthodox Church in July 1652.The new enthroned patriarch starts a documentary research, immediately, consulting both the patriarchy of Constantinopole and the most orthodox churches in Eastern Europe, as far as the cult matters were concerned.

In 1654 Nikon supported by tzar Alexei Mihailovici persuades the Synod and decides the rectification of the Slavonian church books having the Greek ones as model. The Synod is charged with taking the Greek books of that time printed in the Jesuitic printing houses of Venice and Paris as a model for the corrections and not the old ones used some hundred years ago, when Russia was christianized. As a matter of fact the Greeks themselves disapproved these books which were considered wrong and inappropriate. Under the circumstances, a part of the population interpreted Nikon's measure not as a correction, but as a changing or better a misrepresentation of the old books. The reform started by reviewing the books and was immediately followed by other renewals.

Those who accepted Nikon' s reforms were called "nikonians" or "new stylists" and their opponents "rascolnics", that is schismatic. It is taken for granted that the church called "nikonian" by the old rite ones, being supported by the tzar as well, became the official Russian church, and the other one took the name of the old rite orthodox church. We have to mention that, among themselves, the Schismatic called one another "starovertzy" and "starovery"(of old faith) or "staro-obreadtzy"(of old rite).

The Reprisals against the Rascolnics

The repressive measure were extremely severe most of those that hadn't accepted the reforms from the very beginning were forced by different means to do it later and persecution began for those who were against the reform.

The Rascolnics' Reply

Their protest movement developed mainly in two forms: uprising and emigration.

Several Starovers who hadn't been able to final their peace and bear the church persecution, which became official, and also that of the tzar authorities took refuge in lands other than their fatherland. "Entire villages start to leave their homeland crossing Russia' s borders of that time. Thus, the swampy deserts of Eastern Prussia, the Subcarpathian regions of Austrian Galicia and both Danubian principalities were gradually peopled with Rascolnics. Finally, they even go to some of the regions beyond the Danube where the Balkans' Range didn't seem on obstacle for them either…" (Marinescu, 1974, addenda - page 5, quoted from Nadejdin, N. I.).

Pavel Belokrinitzki states: "Settlements of Russian-starovers appeared in the mountain regions of Siberia and Caucas where nobody had settled till them. Russian-starovers peopled entire regions of Ukraine Bellarussia, Poland, Basarabia. A great number of Starovers settled in Turkey, Walachia, Moldavia, Austria and Prussia" (Chirila, 1993).

Therefore, here in the origin unanimously accepted of those who are called in Romania Lipovenians or Russian-lipovenians. They belong to the category of Orthodox Christian Russians of old rite, their number being estimated at 3 million individuals. A great number of them (a figure of over 2 and a half million is being advanced) live, at present, in former USSR (Russia, Ukraine, Bellarus, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Republic of Moldavia etc.) (Chirila, 1993), and the rest of the starovers are scattered through different countries: Bulgaria (Chirila, 1993; Marinescu, 1976); Poland, Finland, Canada, USA (Chirila, 1993); Argentine, Brazil (Istoria …, 1991); Japan (Nakamura, 1993); Australia and Manchuria (Cultele …, 1994). Romania is certainly added to all those mentioned before.

There is hardly known anything about the Russian regions from where the Starovers came to Romania. The speakers of Russian language and its dialects emphasize a lot of common peculiarities, typical of southern velicorussian dialect. On the other hand, while studying Lipovenians' material and spiritual culture one can notice the presence of some characteristics met in Moscow's area and its surroundings (Kostroma, Iaroslavl, Vladimir, Reazan, Kaluga, Tula), others in central-eastern area of European Russia (Orel, Voronej) as well as in middle Volga area (Saratov) (Chirila, 1993; Fenoghen, 1984).

"Lipovenian" - Genesis and Significance

The word Lipovenians" reflects the affiliation to an ethnical group descendent from Starovers (Russian orthodox Christians of the old rite). There are more assumption concerning the origin of the word involved. Those which are constantly mentioned are connected to the word linden (lipa - in Russian) or to the given name Filip (a Starover monk who set on fire the hermitage where he and other monks took shelter and was burnt alive together with them).

Some of the researchers came up with the idea that the linden wood meant for Starovers the raw material for household items and icons, at the same time, they support the idea that the linen forest also meant a refuge for the persecuted ones. These are the reason why the word, Lipovenian-lipa are associated of a much greater importance seems to be the fact that only the old rite Russians in Romania are called Lipovenians and, sometimes, those in former Romanian provinces (Northern Bucovina). Fenoghen, S. (1996) tries to explain this reality. In an official document of the Austrian court in 1783 the Starovers from Bucovina are called "Lipovenians". "Why? For diplomatic reasons of course! By allowing the people of the rite to from their own church bier church Austria strived not to offend its eastern neighbor, Russia […]. The schismatics were not allowed to remain Russians anymore and that was a matter of honor for Russian authorities". The policy of expansion led by the Eastern power as well as its attitude towards the Starover refugees made nowadays Lipovenians accept a new name.

Lately, (after 1989) a new phrase was adopted "Russian-lipovenians". The new name appeared as a result of the animosities between those who hadn't accepted to be called "Lipovenians", taking the word as an offending name, though without being able to explain what was, specifically that offended them, thinking of themselves as Russians, and on the other side, those who refused to be called Russians. Therefore, the result was a compromise: Russian-lipovenians (Ivanov, 1994).

Chirila, F. (1993, page 22) states: "Generically, Lipovenians always belonged to the Russian nation. Therefore, lipovenians are originally Russian but not all the Russians settled in Romania are Lipovenians. Lipovenians are in the strict sense Russians coming from Russia and belonging to the Christian orthodox cult of the old rite."

Lipovenians' Settlement in Romania

a. Fenoghen Supposition. Even though most of those who have studied the history of Lipovenians' settlement on the present Romanian territory consider that the breaking point is the Russian Church Schism in 1654, S. Fenoghen comes up with the idea (not beyond doubt) that the Slavic element settled even before the nikonian reform.

b. Lipovenians' Settlement in Romania after the Nikonian reform. Most specialists agree that the main reason for Lipovenians' settlement in Romania is the religion reform in 1654. An opinion unanimously accepted is that lipovenians inhabited the present geographical areas during the XVIII-th century. The areas inhabited then correspond to those in which Lipovenians live today, namely: Bucovina, Moldavia, and Dobrogea. It is difficult to say in which of these regions they settled first.

More and more researchers agree that one of the first Lipovenian settlements on Romania territory was Lipoveni village (Sacalintzy), a few km away from Suceava. The year when the village was founded is considered to be 1724, the source of this information being a document found by Vrabie, E. in the archives of Mitocu Dragomirnei Monastery. Another Lipovenian village in Bucovina came into being in 1780, when 20 families settled on Putna Monastery estate.

Fenoghen (1996) says (without giving reasons) that in 1707 at Sarichioi in Dobrogea a small Russian community had already existed next to the young main population. Other old Lipovenian village, more and more often mentioned for Dobrogea is Slava Rusa, Carcaliu and Jurilovca. Though for some of these localities the periods of their appearance are given, they are often contradictory. It is considered that, in Moldavia, Lipovenians first appeared in 1730 when Dumasca village was founded (in Vaslui county), and then in 1743 in Manolea village, near Falticeni.

A massive immigration of Starovers was ascertained in the middle of the XVIII-th century. Most of the immigrants come from the Kazacs who took part in the antifeudal war in 1707, first under the command of Condrati Bulavin and then under the command of Ignat Nekrasov. Once defected by the tzar troops in the battle on the Don River, they moved to Kuban region (which was under Turkish rules). Later on when Russia conquered this region, the Nekrasoviens moved to the northern Dobrogea, in many waves: the first one took place in 1740, the second in 1761 and the last one in 1778.

The animosities existing in this area after 1775 forced some of the Kazacs-nekrasoviens to take refuge in the other regions inhabited by Lipovenians. Consequently, in 1783 it of them left for Bucovina where they gained the protection of the Habsburgic Empire. They settled, in accordance with a decree given by Joseph the second (1780-1790), in a few Lipovenian localities which had already been build [Climauti, Fantana Alba (Belaia Krinitza), Socolinti and Mehidra].

There have been tendencies of remigration back to Russia, as for instance after the Romanian War of Independence or after the end of the World War II. It left for Turkey, too, after it had lost Dobrogea to Romania.

In the urban area, where now there are well organized Lipovenian communities, the Staroverian, settled coming from Russia apparently no sooner than the XIX-th century and there are some other towns that were inhabited by the Lipovenians only during this century by emigrating from their old rural settlements founded on the Romanian territory.

Present Distribution of Russian-lipovenians in Romania

We have to mention, from the start, that the latest population census, that in 7 January 1992, emphasizes the presence of 38606 Russian-lipovenians, representing 0.17% from the entire population of Romania (22810035 inhabitants). Among the other minorities of the county, this ethnical minority is the fifth preceded by the Hungarians (7.1%), the Gypsies (1.8%), and the Ukrainians (0.3%).

Analyzing the geographical distribution (fig. 1) of the Lipovenians (Russian-lipovenians), we come to the conclusion that the great majority is spread over the territories where they first settled. These are set in the north-eastern and south-eastern Romania, on the territory of the counties: Suceava (in Bucovina) Botosani, Neamc, Iasi and Vaslui, Tulcea and Constanta (in Dobrogea) and Braila and Ialomita (in Muntenia).

The Russian-lipovenians live in 596 localities of Romania. In a great number of localities their presence is almost insignificant. Thus, more than half of these localities lost only one person belonging to this minority and other 205 do not lost a much greater number of them either, precisely, between 2 and 10 Russian-lipovenians at the most. Basically we can talk chant real Russian-lipovenian communities only in 39 localities where they're number reach 100 inhabitants. 19 of these 39 localities belong to the urban area while the rest to the rural one.

Among the urban localities inhabited by a more significant number of Russian-lipovenians. Lipovenians own their own district. These are Tulcea (4630 Russian-lipovenian inhabitants) and Braila (2341). Other cities that are relevant from this point of view are: Bucharest and Navodari (over 1000 Russian-lipovenians); Constanta, Targu Frumos, Sulina and Botosani (500-1000); Radauti, Roman, Cernavoda, Mangalia, Iasi, Falticeni, Suceava and Piatra Neamt (100-500). From the entire number of population of these cities there are only 7 that hold more than 1% Russian-lipovenians population: Sulina - 12.6%, Targu Frumos (5.8%), Tulcea (4.7%), Navodari (3.2%), Radauti and Braila hold above 1%.

The largest rural localities with compact Lipovenian population are situated in Dobrogea, two of them having a total population which doesn't go far beyond 4000 inhabitants most of them being Russian-lipovenian (over 3900). We are referring to Sarichioi and Carcaliu, both in Tulcea county, Jurilovca (Tulcea county) and Ghindovesti (Constanta county) host over 2500 Lipovenians and Slava Cercheza and Slava Rusa (Tulcea county) over 1000, to which another village can be added, where also their number is greater than 1000 in Bratesti - Iasi county. Between 500-1000 Lipovenians live in Manolea, Climauti (Suceava county) and Mahmudia (Tulcea county) and in Lipoveni (Suceava county), Bordusani (Ialomita county), Focuri (Iasi county), Mila 23, Periprava, and Sfistofca ( all in Tulcea county) live between 100-500 lipovenians.

Within the rural area, where 57.9% of this minority lives, the highest percentage of the Lipovenians population has been registered in Climauti and Sfistofca - over 96%. The village Lipoveni, Sarichioi, Slava Cercheza, Ghindaresti and Carcaliu reach over 90% and Jurilovca, Periprava, Slava Rusa, Mila 23, Manolea and Bratesti hold a percentage between 50-90%.

We also have to outline the fact that, on county level, as far as the percentage of the Russian-lipovenian is concerned, Tulcea undoubtedly stands out. This county shelters more than half (52.9% - 20434) of the minority in view. The same situation holds good for the ethnical subcategories of the Russian and Lipovenian. Also Tulcea is the only county where the Russian-lipovenian (including the subcategories) hold more than 1% of the entire population, representing 7.5% (Lipovenians - 5.9% and Russians 1.6%). Some other counties (Constanta, Iasi, Suceava, Braila) despite the fact host over 2000 Lipovenians don't manage to reach 1%."

Sursa respectivului articol:

http://tobiasconradi...lipovenians.htm

Si alte articole pe aceasta tema:

http://moldova.go.ro...ti/lipoveni.htm

http://www.lipoveni.ro/ro/ist_rus.htm

#488
Naga

Naga

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Si fiindca rakoczy bacs este foarte mandru de aportul secuilor ca "gardieni" ai crestinatatii impotriva tatarilor si turcilor, iar on-topic s-a tot vorbit despre aportul slavic si rolul invaziilor tatare in geneza poporului roman si formarea voievodatelor romane, hai sa abordam un pic problema unui grup etnico-cultural aparte care a jucat un rol important in oprirea expansiunii musulmane in zona si in reducerea influentei tatarilor, chiar daca influenta lor a inceput sa fie simtita mai puternic de prin secolul XIV, si anume cazacii (a nu se confunda cu kazakhii, care sunt o comunitate etnica distincta). Desii cazacii sunt considerati de obicei de origine ucraineana (cazacii zaporojeni) sau rusa (cazacii de pe pe Don etc.), am intalnit totusi opinia ca ar fi fost un grup etnic distinct ce exista deja la data aparitiei tatarilor in Europa de Est. In cazul asta, Diogene, cam care ar fi fost  originea lor probabila? :peacefingers:
   Ar trebui mentionat si ca rusii lipoveni si ucrainenii de azi din Romania sunt in parte, asa cum apare si in textul postat de mine mai sus, urmasii cazacilor emigrati dupa rascoalele din secolul XVIII impotriva incercarilor autoritatii tariste de a le limita libertatile de care se bucurau si care s-au amestecat cu staroverii emigrati din motive religioase ceva mai devreme. Rakoczy, uite cine mai erau "tatici" prin zona, nu numai secuii  :naughty:  :peacefingers:  :

Cossack


Cossack is the common name that has been independently shared by several population groups and military units throughout the history of Eastern Europe and adjacent territories. The most prominent and numerous ones are Ukrainian Cossacks (Козаки) and Don or Russian Cossacks (Казаки). Less known are Polish Cossacks (Kozacy) and Tatar Cossacks (Nağaybäklär).

Cossacks were considered famous for their military skill and self-reliance
. Cossack cultures were mostly exterminated during the time of the Soviet Union and now are in the process of revival.

Ukrainian Cossacks formed the state of Zaporozhian Host in 1649. They are considered the progenitors of the modern Ukrainian nation.

Don Cossacks at one point formed the Don Cossack State. During the time of the Russian Empire Don Cossacks were joined by numerous Russian serfs fleeing from their owners. Don Cossacks were one of the main military forces resisting the Bolsheviks.

Cossacks were also a kind of light cavalry in Poland-Lithuania regardless of ethnicity.

The name is derived from the Turkic word quzzaq, "adventurer", "freeman". This term is first mentioned within a Ruthenian document dated 1395.

Cossacks should not be confused with the Kazakhs [u](Kazakh is spelled Qazaq (Казак) in the native language).

History of Cossacks

It is not clear when the Slavic people started to settle in the lower reaches of the Don and the Dnieper. It is unlikely it could have happened before the 13th century, when the Mongol hordes broke the power of Cumans and other Turkic tribes on that territory.

Proto-Cossacks could have come to existence in the territories of today's Ukraine in the mid-13th century, when crowds of Slavs fled south to escape the Tatar yoke. In 1261 some Slavic people living in the area between the Dniester and the Volga were mentioned in Russian chronicles. More peasants escaped to the Don and the Dnieper's cataracts in the following centuries, when the system of serfdom started to develop in Poland and Russia.

Historical records of the Cossacks before the 16th century are scant. In the 15th century, the Cossack society was described as a loose federation of independent communities, often merging into larger units of a military character, entirely separate and mostly independent from any other local countries (like Poland, Muscovy or Khanate of Crimea).

By the 16th century these Cossack societies were merged into two relatively independent territorial organizations:

    * The Cossacks of Zaporizhia, on the lower bends of the river Dnieper, between Russia, Poland and the Tatars of the Crimea, with the fortified capital, Zaporizhian Sich. They were formally recognized as a state, the Zaporozhian Host, by treaty with Poland in 1649.

    * Don Cossack State, on the river Don, separating the then weak Russian state from the Nogai states, vassals of the Ottoman Empire, with the capital at Cherkassk, later moved to Novocherkassk.

Historical documents of that period refer to those states as sovereign nations with a unique warrior culture, whose main source of income was the pillaging of their neighbours. They were renowned for their raids against the Ottoman Empire and its vassals (like the Tatars), although they didn't shy away from pillaging other neighbours. Their actions increased tension at the southern border of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (Kresy), which resulted in almost constant low-level warfare taking place in those territories for almost the entire existence of the Commonwealth.

In 1539 the Grand Duke Vasili III of Muscovy asked the Ottoman Sultan to curb the Cossacks and the Sultan replied "The Cossacks do not swear allegiance to me, and they live as they themselves please." In 1549 the Czar Ivan the Terrible, replied to a request of the Turkish Sultan to stop the aggressive actions of the Don Cossacks, stating, "The Cossacks of the Don are not my subjects, and they go to war or live in peace without my knowledge." Similar exchanges passed between Russia, Ottomans and the Commonwealth, each of which tried to use Cossack warmongering for its own purposes. Cossacks for their part were mostly happy to plunder everybody more or less equally, although in the 16th century, with Commonwealth dominance extending south, the Zaporozhian Cossacks were mostly, if tentatively, regarded as subjects of the Commonwealth. Registered Cossacks (Polish Kozacy rejestrowi) were a part of Commonwealth army until 1699.

Around the end of 16th century, the relations between the Commonwealth and the Ottomans, which were not very cordial to begin with, further worsened with the growing number of independent actions by the Cossacks. From the second part of the 16th century, Cossacks started raiding (chadzki) territories under Ottoman rule. The Commonwealth could not control fiercely independent Cossacks. Moreover, the Commonwealth was held responsible for the Cossacks since at that time they were nominally under Commonwealth rule. Reciprocally Tatars living under Ottoman rule were raiding the Commonwealth, mostly in the south-east which were fairly sparsely inhabited, while the Cossacks were raiding the heart of Ottoman Empire, its wealthy merchant port cities, which were just two days away from mouth of river Dnieper Cossacks used as their main transportation route. By 1615, Cossacks had even burned the townships on the outskirts of Istanbul. Consecutive treaties between Ottoman Empire and the Commonwealth called both parties to curb Cossacks and Tatars but its execution was almost non-existent on both sides of the border. In internal agreements, forced by Polish side, Cossacks agreed to burn their boats and stop raiding. However boats could be rebuilt fast, and the Cossacks' style of life required glory and booty. Sometimes Cossacks just needed money to live and sometimes Habsburgs bribed them to ease Ottoman pressure on their own borders. Many Cossacks hated Tatars, who after all burned their estates and villages (the feeling was quite mutual here). Cossacks almost yearly raided the Ottomans territories and vassals near the Black Sea, almost always causing the retaliatory Tatar raids (or vice versa). The ensuing chaos and string of retaliations often turned the entire south-eastern Commonwealth border into a low-level war zone and led to the escalation of the Commonwealth-Ottoman warfare, from the Moldavian Magnate Wars to the Battle of Cecora and Wars in 1633-1634.

Cossacks numbers expanded with peasant immigration from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Attempts by Szlachta to turn Zaporozhian Cossacks into serfs eroded the Cossacks' once fairly strong loyalty towards the Commonwealth. Cossack ambitions to be recognized as equal to szlachta were constantly rebuffed and plans for transforming the Two-Nations Commonwealth (Polish-Lithuanian) into Three Nations (with the Cossack and Ruthenian people) were limited to a small minority of forward-thinking men. Waning loyalty of the Cossacks and the szlachta's arrogance towards them resulted in several Cossack uprisings against the Commonwealth in the early 17th century. The largest of these was the Chmielnicki Uprising, which together with The Deluge is considered to be one of the events which brought an end to the Golden Age of the Commonwealth. This uprising freed Cossacks from the Commonwealth sphere of influence, afterwards they swore their allegiance into the Russian Empire with the treaties of Pereyaslav and Andrusiv. The final attempt to rebuild the Polish-Cossack alliance and create a Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian Commonwealth in the 1658 Treaty of Hadiach came to nought after military intervention of Muscovy combined with the infighting among Cossacks themselves.

After this point, the Cossack nation of the Zaporozhian Host was divided into two semiautonomous republics of Muscovy: the Hetmanate, and the more independent Zaporozhia. A Cossack organization was also established in the Muscovite colony of Sloboda Ukraine. These organizations gradually lost their independence, and were abolished by Catherine II by the late 18th century. The Hetmanate became the governorship of Little Russia, Sloboda Ukraine the Kharkiv province, and Zaporozhia was absorbed into New Russia. In 1775 the Zaporozhian Host was abolished and high ranking cossack leaders were granted nobility dvoryanstvo. Some Cossacks resettled to colonise the Kuban steppe which was a crucial foothold for Russian expansion in the Caucasus.

Russian Cossacks played a key role during acquisitions of new territories, being an explorers and spearheading the expansion of the Russian Empire to Siberia (Ermak), Caucasus and Central Asia in 1600-1900s. They also accompanied virtually every expedition of civil geographers, traders, explorers and surveyors as they have been famous for their outstanding survival skills and loyalty.

They served as border guards and protection of colonial infrastructure, forts, settlements and trading posts, as well as in the conflicts (such as Russian-Turkish, Russian-Persian, Balkan wars of 1700s-1800s), military expeditions of Alexander Suvorov and colonial wars in Central Asia. Cossack task force had been dispatched by Emperor Paul I to search for the ground passage to India, but this order has been withdrawn right after the murder of Paul I. Although this expedition was relatively weak from the military standpoint (around 20,000 troops) and spoken to be doomed to fail, this news caused shock in the administration of India once it reached the British.

During the Russian war of 1812-1814 with Napoleon's France, Cossack units represented the most feared by French Russians troops. Also, taking part in partisan war against Napoleon troops on communications and supply lines, during their raids deep into occupied territory, they in fact (along with Russian light cavalry (hussars) and other units), formed tactics of the guerilla warfare and, to some extend, special operations as we know them today.

Around this time, Cossacks unwillingly contributed a great deal in another issue. Europeans have had a few contacts with Cossacks before Allies occupied Paris finalizing the first reign of Napoleon. Among Russian troops, Cossacks as the most exotic to Europeans, drew the lion share of attention and some allied officials had been too impressed by exaggerated war tales told by scared French about Cossacks and their fabulous savage manners. Sir Robert Thomas Wilson has been infected by those fears and gave birth to the phenomena known as Russophobia.(Karwowski-Hoppel, Charles Joseph "Sir Robert Wilson and the Birth of British Russophobia: 1791-1832" Krause, Arielle).

Cossacks founded numerous settlements (called stanitsa) and fortresses along "troublesome borders" (Knyaz (king) Alexander Mikhailivich Gorchakov (князь Александр Михайлович Горчаков), State Chancellor and Minister of Foreign Affairs 1867-1882, prominent diplomat, classmate of Alexander Pushkin, and great supporter of Russian expansion into Asia region) such as forts Verniy (Almaty, Kazakhstan) in south Central Asia, Grozny in North Caucasus, Fort Alexandrovsk (Fort Shevchenko, Kazakhstan), Krasnovodsk (Turkmenbashi, Turkmenistan) stanitsa Novonikolaevskaya (Bautino, Kazakhstan), Blagoveschensk, towns and settlements at Ural, Ishim, Irtysh, Amur and Ussury rivers, just to name a few.

Although Cossacks have always been known as keen Orthodox and generally xenophobic, they often married local residents (other non-Cossack settlers and natives) regardless of race or origin, and sometimes setting aside religious restrictions. War brides brought from distant lands were also not uncommon in Cossack families.

In some distant areas, mostly at initial stage of Russian colonization, they also served as a local law enforcement.

Each Cossack settlement alone or in conjunction with neighbouring settlements, formed a military unit(s) and regiments of light cavalry (or mounted infantry) ready to respond to a threat at very short notice.

They had the privileged status (being in a lifetime military service and subject of tax exempt for it) in the Russian Empire and were considered the one of the most loyal to government and Tsar forces.

Valuing the relative freedom they enjoyed in Imperial Russia, the Cossacks mainly fought against Bolsheviks in the Russian Civil War of 1919, both within the White Army and as partisans. At the same time, many poor Cossacks also joined the Red Army. This notwithstanding, after the victory of the Soviet Communists, the new regime repressed the Cossack culture and way of life. During the Nazi invasion of the USSR the Cossacks once again joined opposing sides of the conflict. One notable group was the Lienz Cossacks, who worked for the Nazis during World War Two. They surrendered to the British Army in Austria in 1945, hoping to join the British to fight Communism. But they were betrayed and handed over to the Soviets, to be executed or imprisoned. At the end of the war, American and British commanders "repatriated" more than 150,000 Cossack men, women, and children to the Soviet Union. Many of these people had never been Soviet citizens.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, efforts to revive the Cossack traditions have grown. In April 2005, Russian President Putin introduced a bill "On the State Service of the Russian Cossacks" (О государственной службе российского казачества) to Duma, which was passed in the first reading on May 18, 2005.

Cossack organization


In early times, Cossack tribes were commanded by an otaman (later called hetman). He was elected by the tribe members at a Cossack rada, as were the other important tribe officials: the judge, the scribe, the lesser officials, and even the clergy. The ataman's symbol of power was a ceremonial mace, a bulava.

The otaman had executive powers and at time of war he was the supreme commander in the field. Legislative power was given to the Tribal Assembly (Rada). The senior officers were called starshyna. In the absence of written laws, the Cossacks were governed by the "Cossack Traditions," the common, unwritten law.

Cossack society and government was militarized. The nation was called a host (vois’ko, sometimes translated "army"), and subdivided into regimental and company districts, and village posts (polky, sotni, and stanytsi).

After the split of Ukraine along the Dnieper River by the Polish-Russian Treaty of Andrusovo 1667, Ukrainian Cossacks are known as Left-bank Cossacks and Right-bank Cossacks.


Popular image of Cossacks

Cossacks have long appealed to romantics as idealizing freedom and resistance to external authority, and their military exploits against enemies of the Russian people have contributed to this favourable image. For others they have been a symbol of repression because of their role in suppressing popular uprisings in the Russian Empire, as well as their assaults against Jews.

Literary reflections of Cossack culture abound in Russian literature, particularly in the works of Nikolai Gogol (Taras Bulba), Leo Tolstoy and Mikhail Sholokhov.

Terminology


Ukrainian Cossacks

    * Hetman - a Ukrainian Cossack supreme military leader
    * Bulava - a ceremonial mace, a symbol of Hetman's authority
    * Starshyna - officers
          o polkovnyk - colonel
          o oboznyi
          o osavul
          o khorunzhyi
          o Otaman - lieutenant
    * tabor - a tactic using a set of horse-drawn wagons, mastered by Cossacks in 16-17th century


Russian Cossacks


In the Russian Empire, the Cossacks were organized into several Voisko's, which lived along Russian borderland, or internal borders between Russian and non-Russian peoples.

    * Voisko (Slavic word, literally means "army", probably of Polish origin ("Wojsko" in polish) - a major cossack military and administrative unit.
    * Ataman - a Russian cossack military leader or subordinate leader (possibly derived from Hetman, which in its turn derived from German Hauptmann ("headman" or "captain") or more likely derived from "ataman" in Turkish)
    * Sotnia ("hundred") - a military unit.
    * Stanitsa - cossack settlement, a village.
    * Cossack, Prikazny, Uryadnik (minor and major), Podkhorunzhiy, Khorunzhiy, Sotnik, Podyesaul, Yesaul, Voiskovoy starshina, -- cossack military ranks (from lowest up)

In 1988 a Soviet law allowed Cossacks to form again. All voiskos are independent of each other, but for a voisko to be recongnized as "official" it needs to have the permission of the Supreme Ataman of the All-Mighty Donsokoye Voisko (and even allowed him to wear the Marshal Star) Since most of the modern Cossack organisations (even those that found themselves outside Russian Federation after 1991) were formed shortly after the law was passed, all of them exist in a loose "confederation" with each other."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossacks

  Si inca un citat despre originea etnica inca neelucidata complet a cazacilor:

"  Centuries ago the forefathers of the present day Cossacks settled in the steppes of the southeastern corner of Europe, bordering on the Black Sea and the Caucasian Mountains on the south, the Caspian Sea and the river Volga on the east, the forests of the Great Russian Plain on the north and the river Dniester on the west. Since the dawn of civilization these steppes had been crossed again and again by the peoples of the Great Migration. The original Cossacks were the product of an intermixture of all these peoples with the previous settlers of the Slavic race. Byzantine writers of the Tenth Century described the Cossacks as a separate people who lived on the river Don, and called them "the brave and strong people." In old Russian chronicles they were similarly described for the first time in 1261. The Don Cossacks fought on the side of the Russian Grand Duke Dimitry against the Tartars in 1380. In all the records of that period the Cossacks were described as a series of independent communities, loosely bound into larger units of a military character, entirely separate from the Russian State. The Russian historian Karamzin wrote: "Where the Cossacks came from cannot be said with certainty, but, in any event, it [their State] existed prior to the Tartar invasion of 1223. These knights lived separately, without pledging allegiance to the Russians, the Poles or the Tartars." Their tribal units, organizations similar to Scottish clans, occupied the whole area between the rivers Dniester on the West and the Volga on the East. At the head of each tribe was an Ataman, or Hetman, elected by the people; the people also elected, for a specifically limited term, the other administrative officers of the tribe: the judge, the scribe, the lesser officials, and even the clergy. Supreme legislative authority rested in the Tribal Assembly (the King, or the Rada). Executive powers were vested in the Ataman; at time of war he was the supreme commander in the field. In the absence of written laws, the Cossacks were governed by the "Cossack Traditions," the Common, unwritten law."

  Sursa:

http://www.armymuseum.ru/kaz1_e.html

  Ce zici Diogene, a existat in cazul asta si un alt aport decat cel slavic? Cuman sau peceneg cumva? :)  :peacefingers:

Edited by Naga, 24 October 2005 - 21:52.


#489
Diogene

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Este tulburătoare asemănarea între brodnici care apar până către 1250, și cazacii care apar după. Ambii sunt niște vagabonzi, niște hoinari, niște aventurieri. Este interesant că târziu (pe la 1600) există multe nume românești printre cazaci, care sunt mai degrabă o orânduire, o formă de organizare în replică la invaziile turcice din Est și apoi din Sud.

Ai auzit de o mică țară cazacă la Dunăre, devreme cred că undeva pe la 1100, sau mai devreme? Am găsit-o pe ceva site-uri ucrainene...

Am citit nu demult "Taras Bulba". Voiam să văd dacă ucrainienii, cu Iușcenko al lor,  sunt ruși sau nu sunt. Este extraordinară, prin ironie, prin simț istoric. Și eu care mă așteptam să găsesc o declamație lacrimogenă la adresa eroilor cazaci....


View PostNaga, on Oct 24 2005, 22:36, said:

Si fiindca rakoczy bacs este foarte mandru de aportul secuilor ca "gardieni" ai crestinatatii impotriva tatarilor si turcilor, iar on-topic s-a tot vorbit despre aportul slavic si rolul invaziilor tatare in geneza poporului roman si formarea voievodatelor romane, hai sa abordam un pic problema unui grup etnico-cultural aparte care a jucat un rol important in oprirea expansiunii musulmane in zona si in reducerea influentei tatarilor, chiar daca influenta lor a inceput sa fie simtita mai puternic de prin secolul XIV, si anume cazacii (a nu se confunda cu kazakhii, care sunt o comunitate etnica distincta). Desii cazacii sunt considerati de obicei de origine ucraineana (cazacii zaporojeni) sau rusa (cazacii de pe pe Don etc.), am intalnit totusi opinia ca ar fi fost un grup etnic distinct ce exista deja la data aparitiei tatarilor in Europa de Est. In cazul asta, Diogene, cam care ar fi fost  originea lor probabila? :peacefingers:
.................
http://www.armymuseum.ru/kaz1_e.html

  Ce zici Diogene, a existat in cazul asta si un alt aport decat cel slavic? Cuman sau peceneg cumva? :)  :peacefingers:


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Si ca sa torn un pic gaz pe foc si sa ii intarat un pic pe "romanii verzi", am auzit de multe ori explicatia conform careia oportunismul tipic politicii romanesti din ultimele secole (schimbarea frecventa a taberelor de partea celor mai puternici la momentul respectiv, concomitent cu evitarea infruntarii adversarilor mai redutabili etc.) ar fi cauzat de catre faptul ca poporul roman s-a aflat intr-o zona aflata la intersectia intereselor unor mari puteri,  supusa unor dese invazii etc. Cazacii (care traiau intr-o zona aflata sub presiunea atat a Imperiului Otoman, a hanatelor tatare, Imperiului Rus si Poloniei medievale) au demonstrat ca poate fi adoptata si o alta cale, cu accent pe apararea independentei (iar dupa pierderea ei pe apararea libertatilor specifice cazacilor in societatea rusa), chiar daca asta a insemnat acceptarea unei stari de razboi aproape perpetuu timp de cateva secole. Si chiar daca au disparut in final ca organizare pseudo-statala si militara, cazacii zaporojeni au stat la baza constituirii natiunii ucrainene si statului ucrainean, iar cazacii rusi au constituit avangarda expansiunii rusesti catre Oceanul Pacific si chiar dincolo de stramtoarea Bering, in Alaska (pana au vandut-o rusii catre SUA).

View PostDiogene, on Oct 24 2005, 22:54, said:

Ai auzit de o mică ţară cazacă la Dunăre, devreme cred că undeva pe la 1100, sau mai devreme? Am găsit-o pe ceva site-uri ucrainene...

  Nu, inca nu auzisem. :)
  In general, cazacii se stabileau predominat in zone aflate pe malurile raurilor sau fluviilor mari: Nistru, Nipru, Don etc. Toata lumea a auzit de reputatia de calareti de stepa a cazacilor, dar mai putin de cea de pirati, chiar daca ei foloseau niste ambarcatiuni destul de primitive in comparatie cu alte natii din vremea aceea. Se pare ca o expeditie maritima cazaca a ajuns la un moment dat sa strabata toata Mediterana pana in Spania, unde au dat mare bataie de cap celor de pe acolo. :)

"  As an example of their daring and prowess, historians recite the exploits of a band of Zaporojie Cossacks who in the Sixteenth Century penetrated the Straits of the Bosphorus, crossed the Sea of Marmora, squeezed through the Dardanelles, sailed the long Mediterranean Sea, captured the Spanish city of Saragossa, and held it against all comers for a full two years. Again, in 1696, the Don Cossacks, sailing the Sea of Azov in their flimsy rowboats, in the presence of the Russian Czar Peter the Great, met and destroyed the powerful Turkish fleet. Similarly, though much later, in 1828 the Cossacks of Zaporojie, in the war of Russia against Turkey, sailed the Black Sea in their light boats (they called them "chaikes," the seagulls) and took by assault the powerful Turkish fortress Brailov."


http://www.armymuseum.ru/kaz1_e.html

Edited by Naga, 24 October 2005 - 23:30.


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View PostDiogene, on Oct 24 2005, 22:54, said:

Este interesant că târziu (pe la 1600) există multe nume românești printre cazaci, care sunt mai degrabă o orânduire, o formă de organizare în replică la invaziile turcice din Est și apoi din Sud.

  Apar si nume de origine "turcica" printre cazaci. De altfel, uite ce scrie tot pe site-ul ala de pe care am mai citat:

" Going from one war to another as they did, there were very few "gray-haired veterans"; at times the Cossack kourens and regiments returned from the wars with just a few able-bodied men in the ranks; new blood would be needed. Newcomers were gladly accepted; all who wanted to join were welcomed. Formalities for admission were few: a candidate had to be a physically sound specimen and had "to believe in God"; he was called on to make the sign of the cross, and, if willing and able to do so, was pronounced a Cosack and was assigned to the kouren (regimental unit) of his own choice, or to that unit which had suffered the greatest losses in the last war or raid."

http://www.armymuseum.ru/kaz1_e.html

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in opinia mea, articolele despre kazaci sunt extrem de interesante!
despre originea lor etnica primara, greu de spus. posibil un amestec proto-slav cu ceva cumani ( asta ar explica originea unor nume "turcice"? ori mai curand acesti turcici erau urmasi ai prizonierilor luati de kazaci, crestinati de ei, mai apoi? :peacefingers:
despre organisarea specifica a acestor kazaci:tipica societatilor razboinice pre-feudale.
inainte de a fi o forma statala, kazacii sunt o organizatia militara, - iar asta ii apropie cumva de secui. daca ne gandim la privilegiile si libertatile lor, vedem asta si mai clar.
as merge chiar mai departe cu presupunerea si as zice asta:
forma militarizata a kazacilor este o ramasita, ori o dezvoltare a structurii societatii slave in timpul migratiunilor din sec 7-9.
caci "zadruga" este tipica slavilor sedentari, nu slavilor in miscare catre vest. :)
pareri? :peacefingers:

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Totuși fenomenul cazac este rus, nu ucrainean. "Națiunea ucraineană" a fost inventată de vienezi folosind materiulul polonez care îi aveau în grijă în Galiția. Azi cei mai ucraineni sunt acești galițieni. Când ei vor înceta să-i mai bată la cap pe est-ucraineni (urmași inclusiv ai cazacilor) că nu sunt ruși, sau ultimii nu vor mai accepta pisălogela, mitul națiunii ucrainene se va destrăma. Locul Ucrainei, fără Galiția, este într-o Rusie democratică.


View PostNaga, on Oct 25 2005, 00:13, said:

Si chiar daca au disparut in final ca organizare pseudo-statala si militara, cazacii zaporojeni au stat la baza constituirii natiunii ucrainene si statului ucrainean, iar cazacii rusi au constituit avangarda expansiunii rusesti catre Oceanul Pacific si chiar dincolo de stramtoarea Bering, in Alaska (pana au vandut-o rusii catre SUA).


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View PostDiogene, on Oct 25 2005, 08:39, said:

Totuși fenomenul cazac este rus, nu ucrainean. "Națiunea ucraineană" a fost inventată de vienezi folosind materiulul polonez care îi aveau în grijă în Galiția. Azi cei mai ucraineni sunt acești galițieni. Când ei vor înceta să-i mai bată la cap pe est-ucraineni (urmași inclusiv ai cazacilor) că nu sunt ruși, sau ultimii nu vor mai accepta pisălogela, mitul națiunii ucrainene se va destrăma. Locul Ucrainei, fără Galiția, este într-o Rusie democratică.

  Si totusi, pe langa deosebirile lingvistice, mare parte dintre ucrainenii de la noi sunt convinsi de distinctia lor fata de rusi. Mama mea e de origine din Delta, rusoaica lipoveana, iar in zona mai traieste si un numar mic de ucraineni, care se considera diferiti de rusi, iar limbile vorbite de ei difera mult (rusii lipoveni vorbesc o rusa veche cu aporturi destul de multe din romana si ucraineana - mama facea multe glume pe vremuri pe seama imprumuturilor din romana si considera ca un lipovean ar avea probleme in Rusia daca nu ar studia inainte rusa literara).
  Atat fosta mea nevasta cat si actuala sunt jumate-jumate romano-ucrainene (una cu tata ucrainean dintr-o zona apropiata Deltei, cealalta cu mama provenita din Bucovina), iar rudele amandorura din partea ucraineana sunt foarte convinse de distinctia lor fata de rusi. Nu am avut ocazia sa studiez comparativ ucraineana si rusa, dar sunt curios daca diferentele sunt mai mari decat cele dintre, sa zicem, romana si aromana. :)  :peacefingers:

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View Postrakoczy, on Oct 25 2005, 06:58, said:

in opinia mea, articolele despre kazaci sunt extrem de interesante!
despre originea lor etnica primara, greu de spus. posibil un amestec proto-slav cu ceva cumani ( asta ar explica originea unor nume "turcice"? ori mai curand acesti turcici erau urmasi ai prizonierilor luati de kazaci, crestinati de ei, mai apoi? :peacefingers:
despre organisarea specifica a acestor kazaci:tipica societatilor razboinice pre-feudale.
inainte de a fi o forma statala, kazacii sunt o organizatia militara, - iar asta ii apropie cumva de secui. daca ne gandim la privilegiile si libertatile lor, vedem asta si mai clar.
as merge chiar mai departe cu presupunerea si as zice asta:
forma militarizata a kazacilor este o ramasita, ori o dezvoltare a structurii societatii slave in timpul migratiunilor din sec 7-9.
caci "zadruga" este tipica slavilor sedentari, nu slavilor in miscare catre vest. :)
pareri? :peacefingers:

  Si eu banuiesc un amestec cu ceva cumani si nu numai. :) Oricum relatiile "fratesti" (:D ) de mai tarziu, cazaco-tatare, au condus dupa parerea mea si la un schimb "prietenesc" de femei care a contribuit la amplificarea amestecului slavo-turcico-mongol.  :)  Plus raidurile din Imperiul Otoman. Este interesant, asa cum reiese din articolul de pe wikipedia, ca a existat si o "ramura" distincta de cazaci de origine tatara (iar azi o mare parte dintre tatarii din Rusia sunt crestini ortodocsi si nu musulmani).
  Mie mi se pare de asemeni interesanta supravietuirea tipului lor specific de organizare militara pana tarziu in epoca moderna. Cred ca este ultima "casta" militara mai importanta care a disparut in epoca contemporana, supravietuind chiar mai mult decat cea a samurailor din Japonia.

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View PostNaga, on Oct 25 2005, 08:59, said:

Si totusi, pe langa deosebirile lingvistice, mare parte dintre ucrainenii de la noi sunt convinsi de distinctia lor fata de rusi. Mama mea e de origine din Delta, rusoaica lipoveana, iar in zona mai traieste si un numar mic de ucraineni, care se considera diferiti de rusi, iar limbile vorbite de ei difera mult (rusii lipoveni vorbesc o rusa veche cu aporturi destul de multe din romana si ucraineana - mama facea multe glume pe vremuri pe seama imprumuturilor din romana si considera ca un lipovean ar avea probleme in Rusia daca nu ar studia inainte rusa literara).
  Atat fosta mea nevasta cat si actuala sunt jumate-jumate romano-ucrainene (una cu tata ucrainean dintr-o zona apropiata Deltei, cealalta cu mama provenita din Bucovina), iar rudele amandorura din partea ucraineana sunt foarte convinse de distinctia lor fata de rusi. Nu am avut ocazia sa studiez comparativ ucraineana si rusa, dar sunt curios daca diferentele sunt mai mari decat cele dintre, sa zicem, romana si aromana. :)  :peacefingers:


nu am la mana enciclopedia limbilor lumii, dar ukrainiana este o limba est-slava de trecere intre rusa si polona. reciproc inteligibila cu fiecare din-aproape-in aproape.... destul de fragmentata dialectal (est/vest).
am impresia ca ukrainiana a aparut relativ tarziu ca limba distincta, undeva pe la anii 1400-1500. :)

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View Postrakoczy, on Oct 25 2005, 09:29, said:

nu am la mana enciclopedia limbilor lumii, dar ukrainiana este o limba est-slava de trecere intre rusa si polona. reciproc inteligibila cu fiecare din-aproape-in aproape.... destul de fragmentata dialectal (est/vest).
am impresia ca ukrainiana a aparut relativ tarziu ca limba distincta, undeva pe la anii 1400-1500. :)

  O sa ma mai documentez si eu. :)  :peacefingers: Si eu si nevasta-mea suntem romanizati suficient de puternic incat sa nu mai stim aproape nimic despre limbile vorbite de rudele din partea materna, asa ca nu prea avem cum sa facem o comparatie in familie.  ;)

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View PostNaga, on Oct 25 2005, 09:35, said:

O sa ma mai documentez si eu.   Si eu si nevasta-mea suntem romanizati suficient de puternic incat sa nu mai stim aproape nimic despre limbile vorbite de rudele din partea materna, asa ca nu prea avem cum sa facem o comparatie in familie.


:confuzzled:  :angry:  

ma duc sa-ti cumpar manuale de ukrainiana/polona/rusa!!!!!! :w00t:
:peacefingers:
-----------------
bine-inteles ca la recensamant ati spus ca sunteti romani.... <_<
la mine acasa.... unul NU a suflat ceva despre nationalitatea romana* :rolleyes:
---------------------------
*am glumit,oarecum :naughty:

Edited by rakoczy, 25 October 2005 - 09:43.


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View Postrakoczy, on Oct 25 2005, 09:40, said:

:confuzzled:  :angry:  

ma duc sa-ti cumpar manuale de ukrainiana/polona/rusa!!!!!!  
-----------------
bine-inteles ca la recensamant ati spus ca sunteti romani.... <_<
la mine acasa.... unul NU a suflat ceva despre nationalitatea romana*  
---------------------------
*am glumit,oarecum

  Pai suntem amandoi jumatate romani si vorbitori in principal de limba romana. :) Iar rubrica pentru "amestecati" nu au pus astia in formularul de recensamant. :P Sincer sa fiu, eram pe vremuri destul de mandru de latura romaneasca, dar in ultimii ani a inceput sa ma dezguste tot mai tare "manelizarea" romanilor si asa mi s-a redesteptat interesul catre mostenirea din partea materna. Bunicii din partea mamei ma invatasera cand eram mic sa vorbesc ruseste, dar in momentul de fata ar cam trebui sa o iau de la capat, asa ca mi-ar prinde bine un manual.  ;)  :peacefingers: Oricum, are mama destule carti din care as putea reinvata limba rusa (desi in cazul asta limba rusa literara).

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Nici lipovenii nu sunt ruși exemplari, și probabil și ucrainenii de-acolo se consideră mai degrabă vest-slavi

Eu vorbesc de puhoiul ucrainean de la Harkov, Dnepropetrovsk, Donțek.  Când se enervează odată pe "conspirația masonică occidentală" strică toate granițele dintre Rusia și Ucraina.

Eu mă bazez pe ideea că orice minciună are picioare scurte. De-altfel Iușcenko este acum mare amic cu Putin, mai să se pupe nu alta. Sunt curios cum vor decurge alegerile parlamentare la primăvară. Cred că știi că Galiția și Ucraina propriu zisă (Estul) votează întotdeauna invers. Și la noi Transilvania + Bucureștiul are alt comportament electoral, dar nu există nici un pericol de separare.


View PostNaga, on Oct 25 2005, 09:59, said:

Si totusi, pe langa deosebirile lingvistice, mare parte dintre ucrainenii de la noi sunt convinsi de distinctia lor fata de rusi. Mama mea e de origine din Delta, rusoaica lipoveana, iar in zona mai traieste si un numar mic de ucraineni, care se considera diferiti de rusi, iar limbile vorbite de ei difera mult (rusii lipoveni vorbesc o rusa veche cu aporturi destul de multe din romana si ucraineana - mama facea multe glume pe vremuri pe seama imprumuturilor din romana si considera ca un lipovean ar avea probleme in Rusia daca nu ar studia inainte rusa literara).
  Atat fosta mea nevasta cat si actuala sunt jumate-jumate romano-ucrainene (una cu tata ucrainean dintr-o zona apropiata Deltei, cealalta cu mama provenita din Bucovina), iar rudele amandorura din partea ucraineana sunt foarte convinse de distinctia lor fata de rusi. Nu am avut ocazia sa studiez comparativ ucraineana si rusa, dar sunt curios daca diferentele sunt mai mari decat cele dintre, sa zicem, romana si aromana. :)  :peacefingers:


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View PostDiogene, on Oct 25 2005, 10:02, said:

Nici lipovenii nu sunt ruși exemplari, și probabil și ucrainenii de-acolo se consideră mai degrabă vest-slavi

Eu vorbesc de puhoiul ucrainean de la Harkov, Dnepropetrovsk, Donțek.  Când se enervează odată pe "conspirația masonică occidentală" strică toate granițele dintre Rusia și Ucraina.

Eu mă bazez pe ideea că orice minciună are picioare scurte. De-altfel Iușcenko este acum mare amic cu Putin, mai să se pupe nu alta. Sunt curios cum vor decurge alegerile parlamentare la primăvară. Cred că știi că Galiția și Ucraina propriu zisă (Estul) votează întotdeauna invers. Și la noi Transilvania + Bucureștiul are alt comportament electoral, dar nu există nici un pericol de separare.

  Apropierea dintre cele trei "natii surori", bielorusa, ucraineana si rusa a ramas puternica dupa destramarea URSS si nu cred sa dispara, indiferent de orientarile pro-vest ale unor politicieni. :) Parerea mea e ca pe termen lung (sau foarte lung) Uniunea Europeana se va extinde si mai mult catre est, dincolo de Europa geografica, pana la Pacific. ;) Oricum, astea sunt speculatii si deviem prea mult off-topic si or sa ne traga de urechi "romanii verzi". :)  :peacefingers:

#502
Diogene

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Ar fi interesant ca fiecare să-și descrie "originea" pe baza cunoștințelor de istorie a familiei sale.

O bunică cred că era româncă iobagă din Câmpia Transilvaniei.

Un bunic cred că se trăgea de undeva de către Moldova, ceva evreiesc, ucrainean. Altfel era mare patriot român, puțin cam rasist - după cum erau vremurile. Cred că ar fi fost deranjat de "intuițiile" mele.

Un alt bunic venea dinspre o regiune săsească, dar era cam negru la chip. Poate, vorba lui Racoczy, era cuman. Era cam împăciuitor cu ungurii de aceea oamenii din sat i-au dat o poreclă adecvată.

În sfârși ultima bunică avea un nume de tradiție ucraineano-slovacă, dar arăta ca o săsoaică sau gepidă, ce o mai fi fost.

Nici unul nu știa din familiile lor altă limbă decât româna.

Deci sunt român de "rasă pură'. Nu știu dacă și Sirius, cu care am avut ceva discuții, este tot așa.

#503
Naga

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View PostDiogene, on Oct 25 2005, 11:03, said:

Ar fi interesant ca fiecare să-și descrie "originea" pe baza cunoștințelor de istorie a familiei sale.

O bunică cred că era româncă iobagă din Câmpia Transilvaniei.

Un bunic cred că se trăgea de undeva de către Moldova, ceva evreiesc, ucrainean. Altfel era mare patriot român, puțin cam rasist - după cum erau vremurile. Cred că ar fi fost deranjat de "intuițiile" mele.

Un alt bunic venea dinspre o regiune săsească, dar era cam negru la chip. Poate, vorba lui Racoczy, era cuman. Era cam împăciuitor cu ungurii de aceea oamenii din sat i-au dat o poreclă adecvată.

În sfârși ultima bunică avea un nume de tradiție ucraineano-slovacă, dar arăta ca o săsoaică sau gepidă, ce o mai fi fost.

Nici unul nu știa din familiile lor altă limbă decât româna.

Deci sunt român de "rasă pură'. Nu știu dacă și Sirius, cu care am avut ceva discuții, este tot așa.

  Care-i ala roman de rasa pura pe aici sa-l vad si eu? :lol: Am glumit, bineinteles. :peacefingers:
  Ca o chestie curioasa, eu am fost interpelat de mai multe ori daca nu sunt rus ori basarabean de catre persoane necunoscute, si asta numai pe baza fizionomiei si tenului, desi nu am accent moldovenesc sau rusesc, ci unul pur "sudist"( :P ).

#504
Diogene

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Așa cum există "degustător de vinuri" ar putea exista "depistatori de rase". Se aleg niște oameni cu calități remarcabile în această direcție, sunt plimbați prin toată lumea câțiva ani buni ca să vadă bio-tipologia umană.

Și apoi sunt puși la treabă. Privesc un individ, îi urmăresc, gesturile, temperamentul și îndată spun din ce "rasă" este. Ăștia cu genetica lor ar trece pe locul doi.

View PostNaga, on Oct 25 2005, 12:12, said:

Care-i ala roman de rasa pura pe aici sa-l vad si eu? :lol: Am glumit, bineinteles. :peacefingers:
  Ca o chestie curioasa, eu am fost interpelat de mai multe ori daca nu sunt rus ori basarabean de catre persoane necunoscute, si asta numai pe baza fizionomiei si tenului, desi nu am accent moldovenesc sau rusesc, ci unul pur "sudist"( :P ).


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