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Hdd-uri de capacitate mare - cela mai avantajoase (cost/fiabilitate)?

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13 replies to this topic

#1
benis

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Pornind de la testele făcute de băieții ăștia https://www.backblaz...ts-for-q2-2022/
Remarc că cele mai fiabile sunt, cu o rată mare de încredere HDD-urile de capacitate mare.
Spre exemplu https://www.backblaz...ts-for-q2-2022/
Având în vedere că acest model pleacă de la 1500 de lei în timp ce cel mai ieftin hdd de 6 Tb pleacă de pe la 700 de lei, prețul per Tbyte pare cel mai bun și astfel ar deveni alegerea optimă. Există vreo eroare în logica mea?

#2
TehCube

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La exemplu ai dat acelasi link ca primul, deci nu stim la ce drive te referi.

Dar in principiu, da, ai dreptate, si eu ma gandeam sa iau un HDD cat mai mare (12TB or more) cat inca se mai fabrica, pentru posteritate. Si rationamentul era acelasi, sunt si OK dpdv fiabilitate si sunt decente dpdv pret.
Am vreo 4 HDD-uri in PC dintre care unul de vreo 10 ani care inca duce, as putea sa iau unul de 12, sa-i fac 2-3 partitii si sa pastrez doar unul din cele 4 pentru frecus (downloads/etc.).
Bine ca mi-ai adus aminte, ca tot vine BF...

Edited by TehCube, 31 October 2022 - 23:36.


#3
eiffel

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Exista un topic dedicat cu rezultatele testelor respectivilor - de ani de zile fac public anual statistici privind fiabilitatea HDD-urilor folosite de ei - majoritar de servere - ptr ca asta au.

In momentul de fata din preturile care le vad pe la noi ca raport capacitate/pret cele mai rentabile sunt pe la 4 TB.

#4
FeDaYin

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Eu aleg hdd-uri mari pentru ca:

1. Pretul pe TB este mai mic decat ca la hdd-urile mici, nu mi se pare pret bun 6TB la 700 lei. Mi se pare mai convenabil 18TB la 1600 lei.
2. La un hdd de 18TB scade viteza sub 200 MB/s doar dupa primii 12-13 TB, practic un HDD mare se comporta ca un RAID0 de 2 hdd-uri mici.
3. Prefer sa ocup un slot SATA cu 1 hdd de 18TB decat 3 SATA cu hdd-uri de 6TB.
De asemenea 3 hdd-uri vor fi mai zgomotoase ca unul singur.
De asemenea 3 hdd-uri vor consuma mai mult decat unul singur.
4. HDD-urile enterprise au peste 15 mb/s la scriere 4k, iar hdd-urile desktop/nas/surveillance au 1-3 mb/s. Cele enterprise sunt mai rapide pentru fisiere mici sau la scrieri multiple in acelasi timp.

Eu stiu un singur lucru: hdd-ul odata pornit, nu se atinge sau se muta. Carcasa nu se misca/muta daca hdd-ul este pornit.

Partitia NTFS de 18TB necesita cluster size/allocation unit size de 8kb minim, deci un fisier de 1kb va ocupa 8kb pe disk, in loc de 4kb la partitiile mai mici. Pentru hdd de 16TB merge cluster size de 4kb.

Majoritatea HDD-urilor Toshiba au sector size de 4k nativ, nu 512e. Posibil sa existe probleme de compatibilitate cand se folosesc mai multe in RAID. De asemenea daca ai hdd 4Kn, nu poti face raid cu unul cu 512e. Si cica 4Kn e mai rapid ca 512e la scriere.

Edited by FeDaYin, 01 November 2022 - 13:36.


#5
neagu_laurentiu

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Statistica discurilor cu probleme nu ajuta individual prea mult, tocmai la tine poate aparea exceptia.
In rest pretul cel mai bun per TB.

#6
benis

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Totuși, riscul de a apărea problema poate fi și de 4-5 ori mai mare în anumite situații.

#7
dani.user

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Mereu exista un risc de a aparea probleme.

De asta se foloseste redundanta (RAID) + backup.

#8
neagu_laurentiu

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View Postbenis, on 01 noiembrie 2022 - 14:12, said:

Totuși, riscul de a apărea problema poate fi și de 4-5 ori mai mare în anumite situații.
E un risc statistic si avand impact pt. Backblaze, pt. altii importanta are alta dimensiune.

#9
benis

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Am comandat ultrastarul de 14 TB cu 1500 de lei.

#10
benis

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Deja Ultrastarul are probleme. Prima dată l-am trimis în service pentru că făcea zgomote, apoi nu a mai fost văzut deloc de PC. Defect nemanifestat în service dar am aflat ulterior că trebuie scoasă alimentarea de 3.3v. Am făcut asta și a mers o vreme. Acum iar nu e văzut de PC. Deja mă exasperează.

#11
FeDaYin

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Eu am doar seagate, 3 de 18tb, 1 de 16tb, 1 de 12tb, 1 de 8tb (SMR), 5 de 4tb, cateva de 3tb si 2tb. Doar unul de 8TB a murit si era SMR.
Cu siguranta o sa anunt cand mai pica vreunul.

#12
FeDaYin

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Meanwhile mi-a murit un seagate expansion 3 TB cumparat decembrie 2017, cu ST3000DM003 inauntru, fabricatie aprilie 2017, n-avea bad-uri, avea 120 000 load cycles, 100% life, i-am verificat SMART-ul cu o zi inainte. Il tinean pornit, nu accesam nimic de pe el de cateva luni. Majoritatea timpului statea cam la 47 grade. Din senin a inceput sa faca niste zgomote ciudate, am incercat sa deschid un film de pe el, n-a mers. L-am scos din priza, l-am pornit, porneste si face 2 sunete metalice de 2 ori si motorul se opreste. Acelasi lucru de fiecare data cand conectez cablu USB. L-am aruncat, aia e. O sa-l inlocuiesc probabil cu Seagate Exos X20 20TB, ca-s mare fan Seagate.

Niste informatii pe care nu le stiam https://www.reddit.c...r_manufacturer/

Quote

TL;DR
I've asked and been given hard drive manufacturing answers by someone within the industry.
I can't and won't ask or disclose anything that may lead to this person's identity, employer or position.
I have no agenda in sharing the following other than keeping with my general goal here of helping and learning from others, as shown by the majority of my posts.
Begin Q&A
I've been very fortunate to have been contacted by someone within the hard drive manufacturing industry because of some of my posts. I can't disclose whom this person is, but from my layman's understanding of additional undisclosable detailed information, I'm fully confident this person is whom/what they claim to be.
I was able to ask some questions and was given some very interesting info that confirms what I've posted and others have speculated about.
I hope we'll be able to ask more questions in the future, but understand that both I and my source may refuse to ask or answer any question publicly for confidentiality reasons.
Q: A CMR drive be changed to DM-SMR or only HM or HA-SMR? There's a conspiracy theory that the manufacturers may try to submarine SMR into their drives in the future. IMO, it would be market suicide!
A: In general, SMR drives use the same hardware (heads and platters) as CMR drives. SMR just has the tracks closer so you get more capacity. DM-SMR is the consumer level version that was created to reduce manufacturing cost on lowest capacity drives. It was predicted that SSD was going to take over low capacity HDD’s years ago. The goal of DM-SMR is to reduce manufacturing costs while maintaining acceptable performance in intended applications (light duty consumer applications).
On the opposite end of the market, for Cloud, they want as much capacity as possible, so that’s why we use SMR there as well. They demand consistent performance though, for their customers in turn. So HM-SMR is sold to that market. You get the benefit of the closer tracks (so more physical tracks on the same platter) at the cost of writing a whole 256 MiB zone at once, because every 256 MiB there’s a “gap” in the SMR tracks. HM-SMR requires a file system and storage driver that are aware of the HM-SMR rules. If there’s data already in one of those SMR zones, you can’t just write in the middle of one of those zones, without resetting that zone first. Otherwise it would be way too easy to overwrite data in that zone. The HDD firmware keeps track of where we are allowed to write within zones and on HM-SMR drives, you can ask the drive for those values, called “write pointers”. HA-SMR isn’t popular anymore and I don’t know if anyone is still making those. Hybrid SMR is also out there in the world, where you can convert any individual 256 MiB zones between SMR and CMR. Those require special kernel and HBA/controller firmware and OS and file systems to work.
Also, for HM-SMR, there’s a beta version of BTRFS that mostly works. Might be worth mentioning. You can Google “btrfs hmsmr” for tutorials. I probably wouldn’t use it for production data but if you end up with one of those HM-SMR drives, it works well enough for Chia or something.
My notes: I posted about HM-SMR in this thread: https://www.reddit.c...mr_and_dropbox/
Q: Is it true that the drives in externals can be: overstock, overruns, binned (out of spec drives), from cancelled orders.
A: Yes to all of it. Externals are the lowest bins above the [redated] (Edit: binned rives} we sell to third parties. It’s whatever is leftover. They have less warranty because they aren’t expected to last as long.
My notes: The first part is supported by what I posted in this thread, https://www.reddit.c...s_inside_my_wd/ which has a link to WD's disclosure about this.
It's been confirmed by another source that the binned drives, are drives that are Out Of Spec, flashed with special firmware that can't be updated and is no longer supported by the manufacturer. This is source of SOME of the unbranded drives from certain resellers.
Q: Is it true that in a given generation of HDD, when reduced capacities are released at the same time, you can sometimes tell from the model number that it’s the same hardware inside as a full capacity drive” To be used in externals or sold to resellers?
A: Yes, see above. The [redated] (My edit: XX drive size) were reconfigured for 12 and 14TB. The [redacted] went all the way down to 10TB to my knowledge. We just disable specific bad heads in the factory and rewrite the tracks. It’s an automated process obviously, but we can internally look up all that history on any serial number.
Q: Is it true that some or all drives of a particular size come from the same hardware line and only the firmware determines which line, e.g. Home, Survelliance, NAS, Datacenter, Enterprise it's labeled as. Or are there separate lines for each type?
A: Yes, kind of. In the spirit of the question, yes, especially in recent years. The firmware is different for those markets, and specific hardware might be binned for those markets too. For example, surveillance firmware is tuned to be performing writes for the vast majority of the time and to handle data streaming better, as in from cameras. Some of the caching and performance features are disabled, and the reliability features are tweaked to be less likely to interrupt that incoming data stream.
My note: To my layman's understanding, this doesn't mean that ALL drives of a given size are the same. Just that SOME drives of a given size MAY be from the same line.
Also note that "binned" as used in the answer doesn't necessarily mean lower or better performing or drive specs. Just different for different uses.
Q: Is it true that drives that don't meet the full specs can be binned and their firmware permanently changed to a lower spec drive, then sold to resellers?
A: Yes. The firmware doesn’t change the drive to a lower quality drive, it is the manufacturing imperfections. Head fly height is less than 5 nanometers, but if any of those heads touch the disk, the head suffers damage. And there are a lot of heads in high capacity hard drives now. Temperature and humidity affect the aerodynamics of the heads at that level so that is adjusted constantly within the firmware. Usually it’s 20 heads per drive, and even if we bin the parts before assembly, sometimes we figure out in the factory that one or more heads can’t meet the reliability requirements, so we permanently disable them in the firmware.


#13
mariusixy

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View PostFeDaYin, on 05 martie 2023 - 13:52, said:

Eu am doar seagate, 3 de 18tb, 1 de 16tb, 1 de 12tb, 1 de 8tb (SMR), 5 de 4tb, cateva de 3tb si 2tb. Doar unul de 8TB a murit si era SMR.
Cu siguranta o sa anunt cand mai pica vreunul.
In concluzie la ultima postare cu hdd-ul defect: traieste-ti viata!
Nu iti mai dedica zilnic atatea ore cautand si descarcand jocuri gratuite ori stocand filme si seriale.
5G e deja prezent si pana se face cafeaua ai inapoi filmul dorit.
In fiecare an apar zeci de mii de jocuri si cu trecerea anilor tot mai multe vor fi gratuite.
Stai calm ca nu vor disparea site-urile cu jocuri gratuite.


#14
FeDaYin

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Dovada ca nu e recomandat sa mai cumparati hdd-uri de desktop care au PCB facut intentionat sa se degradeze dupa 1-2-3 ani. Probabil hdd-urile stricate pe care le-am aruncat inca erau bune daca se reconditiona PCB-ul, n-am stiut ca majoritatea hdd-urilor se strica de la faptul ca oxideaza contactele de pe PCB.
[ https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/Wb-YuKtrc3I?feature=oembed - Pentru incarcare in pagina (embed) Click aici ]


Pana la urma am cumparat Seagate Exos X20 20TB ST20000NM007D, e incredibil ca in acelasi spatiu aveam hdd-uri de 2 sau 3TB, acum am de 18 si 20TB.

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