I2 - ADN al vechii populatii din SE Europei ?

Vine ca o surpriza pentru mine sa descopar ca ADN-ul I2 , nu mai este considerat ca fiind al vechii populatii din SE Europei . Cred ca subiectul ne priveste si pe noi romanii, care suntem purtatori de I2, e drept intr-o proportie mai mica ca slavii sudici . Si se pare ca moldovenii sunt purtatori de I2, intr-o proportie mai mare decat restul romanilor .
Se sugereaza ca prezenta I2 in aceasta zona, se datoreaza unei migratii slave timpurii undeva in urma cu   2,860 ± 730 ani . Inteleg ca asta ar putea fi o migratie tarzie a slavilor de provenienta indo-europeana .
Un alt element care probabil ne priveste este cultura Cucuteni, care ar fi trebuit sa aiba populatie cu I2 , dupa vechea conceptie , dar are (descoperit) doar ADN G2a , care ar corespunde fermierilor anatolieni .  Desigur, mai tarziu, G2 este inlocuit cu R1, odata cu asimilarea culturii Cucuteni de catre indo-europeni .
De mentionat si ca I2a -L261 nu se gaseste in populatia romana/italica, dar este prezent in conducatorii maghiarilor din secolul 9 . Pot fi acestia partial de origine slava ?
Ce parere aveti si daca detineti informatii suplimentare despre subiect .


I2a1a2b-L621 is typical of the South Slavic populations of Southeastern Europe, being highest in Bosnia-Herzegovina (>50%) in Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs,[3] because of which is often called "Dinaric".[13] It has the highest variance and also high concentration in Eastern Europe (Ukraine, Southeastern Poland, Belarus).[14]
Older research considered that the high frequency of this subclade in the South Slavic-speaking populations to be the result of "pre-Slavic" paleolithic settlement in the region. Perièiæ et al. (2005) for instance place its expansion to have occurred "not earlier than the YD to Holocene transition and not later than the early Neolithic".[2][3][16][17] However the prehistoric autochthonous origin of the haplogroup I2 in the Balkans is now considered as out of date,[nb 1] as already Battaglia et al. (2009) observed highest variance of the haplogroup in Ukraine, and Zupan et al. (2013) noted that it suggests it arrived with Slavic migration from the homeland which was in present-day Ukraine.[22]
The research by O.M. Utevska (2017) concluded that the haplogroup STR haplotypes have the highest diversity in Ukraine, with ancestral STR marker result "DYS448=20" comprising "Dnieper-Carpathian" cluster, while younger derived result "DYS448=19" comprising the "Balkan cluster" which is predominant among the South Slavs.[14] This "Balkan cluster" also has the highest variance in Ukraine, which indicates that the very high frequency in the Western Balkan is because of a founder effect.[14] Utevska calculated that the STR cluster divergence and its secondary expansion from the middle reaches of the Dnieper river or from Eastern Carpathians towards the Balkan peninsula happened approximately 2,860 ± 730 years ago, relating it to the times before Slavs, but much after the decline of the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture.[14] More specifically, the "Balkan cluster" is represented by a single SNP, I-PH908, known as I2a1a2b1a1a1c in ISOGG phylogenetic tree (2019), and according to YFull YTree it formed and had TMRCA approximately 1,850-1,700 YBP (2nd-3rd century AD).[15]
It is considered that I-L621 could have been present in the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture,[23] but until now was only found G2a,[24] and another subclade I2a1a1-CTS595 was present in the Baden culture of the Calcholitic Carpathian Basin.[23][25] Although it is dominant among the modern Slavic peoples on the territory of the former Balkan provinces of the Roman Empire, until now it was not found among the samples from the Roman period and is almost absent in contemporary population of Italy.[13] It was found in the skeletal remains with artifacts, indicating leaders, of Hungarian conquerors of the Carpathian Basin from the 9th century, part of Western Eurasian-Slavic component of the Hungarians.[13][23] According to Horolma et al. (2019) and Fóthi et al. (2020), the distribution of ancestral subclades like of I-CTS10228 among contemporary carriers indicates a rapid expansion from Southeastern Poland, is mainly related to the Slavs and their medieval migration, and the "largest demographic explosion occurred in the Balkans".[13][26] The earliest archeogenetic sample until now is Sungir 6 (~900 YBP) near Vladimir, Russia which belonged to the I-S17250 > I-Y5596 > I-Z16971 > I-Y5595 > I-A16681 subclade,[27][28] as well I-CTS10228 and I-Y3120 subclades were found in two Viking samples from Sweden (VK53) and Ukraine (VK542) with predominantly Slavic ancestry of which the second belongs to Gleb Svyatoslavich (11th century)

sursa :
https://en.wikipedia...plogroup_I-M438

mailgmail, on 16 iulie 2021 - 15:42, said:

Un picior si mana dreapta de origine slava, restul de origine maghiara, dar berbecu de origine vlahaseasca!

Edited by criztu, 16 July 2021 - 16:22.

Ma intriga putin datarea eventualei migratii slave acum 2800 +- 700 ani .
Acum 2800 de ani cred ca corespunde perioadei dark age a grecilor -adica in pauza dintre civilizatia miceniana si cea clasica greaca . De aici si lipsa de mentiuni scrise .
Dar + 700 ani ne duce intr-o perioada in care si grecii si romanii puteau sa scrie despre un asemenea eveniment .
Minus 700 ani ne impinge inapoi destul cat sa nu asteptam o sursa scrisa .
Ce efect ar fi putut sa aiba aceasta eventuala migratie asupra limbii tracilor, dacilor , ilirilor ?

Eu am i5  

mailgmail, on 16 iulie 2021 - 15:42, said:

În epoca bronzului nu existau triburi slave.
Iar slavii au apărut în SE Europei în perioada migraţiilor barbare,
începând cu sec. 6 e.n.

ce sunt slavii?
cum ii definesti, dupa limba, religie, politica?

I-ul a facut parte din IJ iar impartirea s-a facut in levant. I-ul nu intrat in europa prin nord-est, cu presupusa migratie a slavilor.

Edited by morenno, 16 July 2021 - 17:09.

morenno, on 16 iulie 2021 - 17:07, said:

Nu ii definesc eu . I-au definit altii ca populatie de pe teritoriul actualei Ucraine .

"Zupan et al. (2013) noted that it suggests it arrived with Slavic migration from the homeland which was in present-day Ukraine. "

panslavismul e o creatie politica ruseasca, nu are legatura cu genetica.

I-ul sa impartit in I1 si I2 in regiunea noastra. ce iti spune lucrul asta?

Edited by morenno, 16 July 2021 - 17:15.

Zic sa nu te stresezi atat cu adn-urile. Lumea astae un mare talmes balmes, romanii care s-au stabilit aici nu proveneau din capitala, ci din toate colturile imperiului, apoi o gramada de migratori au trecut pe aici, o parte au ramas, In Moldova nu au ajuns romanii, Adn-ul mitocondrial difera la ardeleni fata de olteni, cand armafa romana s-a retras, o parte din populatie i-a urmat, apoi o parte au revenit, insotiti de altii, etc...

mailgmail, on 16 iulie 2021 - 15:42, said:

Daca ai mancat caietele si ai baut cerneala...vezi?
Mai bine ai juca table in parc.

criztu, on 16 iulie 2021 - 16:20, said:

bine plasat .... pfff, ce multe rezolva.... inclusiv mancarimea, o anumita mancarime....
Cu putina insistenta ajuta si la scoaterea gargaunilor din cap.

morenno, on 16 iulie 2021 - 17:13, said:

Am mentionat eu panslavismul pe undeva ? Sau le-am sustinut eu ideile ? In general nu agreez partea muskovita a rusilor .
Poti sa dai o sursa sau amanunte despre separarea cladei I in I1 si I2 in regiunea noastra ?

migratorii nu au fost niciodata in numar mai mare decat autohtonii. baza genetica s-a pastrat.

initiator, daca tot vrei sa asociezi un hg cu slavii, R1 e mai potrivit - ucraina e peste 50% R1.
uita-te la compozitia genetica din moldova si ungaria, ca o sa intelegi si cine erau cuceritorii maghiari.
in Romania domina I2a1( danubian, dinaric, sardinian), I2a2( pre-celto-germanic) si I1( pre-germanic). germanic nu inseamna german.

Edited by morenno, 16 July 2021 - 17:49.

rumegus, on 16 iulie 2021 - 17:22, said:

Perfect de acord cu tot ce spui . Totusi nu strica sa mai aflam cate ceva .

viotl, on 16 iulie 2021 - 17:44, said:

Este " rewarding " cate odata sa mananci caiete si sa bei cerneala . Am jucat si table mai demult , intre doua caiete .

rumegus, on 16 iulie 2021 - 17:22, said:

Colegu, mai filtreaza si tu ce citesti pe net, stie toata lumea ca netul e plin de prostii.
Romanii au fost aici dintotdeauna.

mailgmail, on 16 iulie 2021 - 17:48, said:

Foarte posibil, de acord. Doar ca nu e cazul tau, din pacate.

morenno, on 16 iulie 2021 - 17:45, said:

Asociez demult R1a cu slavii din secolul 6-7 . Desi Curta zice ca nu a avut loc o migratie atunci , ci doar o propagare a limbii .
Ce inteleg eu din citatul de mai sus , este ca I2a1 , ala dinaric nu ar fi de provenienta "old european" .

mailgmail, on 16 iulie 2021 - 17:48, said:

Pai si de ce te-ai oprit. era de dorit sa-i dai inainte.

viotl, on 16 iulie 2021 - 17:51, said:

Cred ca se referea la romanii din Peninsula Italica , nu la poporul nostru .
Cum stii tu ca nu e "rewarding " pentru mine ?

viotl, on 16 iulie 2021 - 17:53, said:

Esti pus pe atacuri, constat .

viotl, on 16 iulie 2021 - 18:06, said:

Nu esti obligat sa postezi . Dar daca te mananca, incearca sa vezi daca te alegi cu un ban  !
Altfel nu-mi amintesc sa ma fi luat cu ceva de tine .