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Astronomia sau astrologia sunt permise?

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#19
wagmich

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Si eu, "Am sa fiu scurt si la obiect. Este astronomia o stiinta permisa de Dumnezeu?"
NU! Numai lumanari cumparate direct din biserica, din cele facute din jumatatile recuperate ca mucuri.

Edited by wagmich, 20 July 2020 - 21:25.


#20
razor01

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View Postaaaa4567, on 20 iulie 2020 - 21:09, said:

Crezi ca exista astronomia pe atunci, in forma in care este inteleasa azi orice stiinta?

Nu chiar in forma asta dar da, exista astronomia ca stiinta.

View PostDestini, on 20 iulie 2020 - 18:44, said:

Este astronomia o stiinta permisa de Dumnezeu?

Intri pe un magazin online de specialitate, cumperi un telescop, il montezi in curte sau pe strada, daca stai la bloc si incepi sa observi corpurile ceresti.
In momentul acesta practici astronomia. Dupa mintea ta ce crezi, e permis sa faci asa ceva?

Chiar iti recomand sa faci treaba asta, este un hoby deosebit daca ai rabdarea necesara.

Edited by razor01, 20 July 2020 - 21:39.


#21
Cr1spy

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View PostYoda, on 20 iulie 2020 - 19:31, said:



ĂŽn Grecia Antică erau studiate Ă®mpreună, iar denumirile lor erau considerate sinonime. Aşa au rămas până prin sec. 16-17, când progresul ştiinţific a permis distanţarea astronomiei Ă®n defavoarea astrologiei.

Astrologia nu este interzisă de creştini. Există şi o carte, "Astrologia creştină" publicată de William Lilly Ă®n 1647. Nu a fost ars pe niciun rug pentru asta. Ce scrie Ă®n fragmentul citat de iniţiator se referă la " meşteşugul de cititor Ă®n stele" practicat probabil de şarlatani, nu de cunoscători ai astrologiei.
Tu stii mai multe pe tema asta ? De unde stii ca la asta se refera ?

#22
caiuscorneliu

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Astronomia e o știință și încă una care pune serios la încercare neuronii cercetătorilor. Asta în contrast cu astrologia sau religia, care sunt pe același nivel, nutreț intelectual pentru proști.

#23
Cr1spy

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Si ti se pare un lucru inteligent sa mergi pe aria de religie si sa-i faci pe crestini prosti ?

#24
wagmich

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Nu el i-a facut. El doar a constatat. Culmea e ca are dreptate. Sau se inseala si aia care pupa moaste/icoane facatoare de minuni, sau umbla-n patru labe in jurul bisericilor, aia care se "infrupta" cu anafura cu o singura lingurita in vreme de pandemie, sunt "inteligenti"?

Edited by wagmich, 20 July 2020 - 23:31.


#25
Cr1spy

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Pai una este constatarea si alta manifestarea. Astfel de manifestari nu denota inteligenta. Deloc.

#26
caiuscorneliu

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Adevărul e dureros, într-adevăr. Sunt și creștini isteți care au și cunoștințe științifice, nu neg. Dar, legat de subiect, orice imbecil cu două clase sau babă analfabetă de la țară îți poate vorbi și își poate da cu părerea legat de astrologie sau religie. De fapt, e foarte probabil să o și facă, astea sunt domeniile lor "forte". În schimb câți dintre ei pot spune ceva coerent din astronomie? Ei, uite asta e diferența între o știință și orice altă bolboroseală fără noimă. Prima e inaccesibilă analfabeților și idioților în timp ce cea din urmă e a doua lor natură. Evident, am generalizat. Dar când vorbim de mase mari de oameni putem doar generaliza, statistica primează. Totuși, cât tupeu să ai încât să compari o știință cu povești și fabulații?

Edited by caiuscorneliu, 21 July 2020 - 00:11.


#27
Cr1spy

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Eu n-am vazut pe topic nicio comparatie de valoare intre cele doua in tema topicului. Probabil tu ai "citit" doar din capul tau. Se mai intampla cand esti doar rau intentionat si te fura valul. :)

Edited by Cr1spy, 21 July 2020 - 00:24.


#28
Yoda

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View PostCr1spy, on 20 iulie 2020 - 21:44, said:

De unde stii ca la asta se refera ?
Mai citeşte încă o dată mesajul meu. Acum ai observat cuvântul "probabil"?

View Postcaiuscorneliu, on 20 iulie 2020 - 22:57, said:

Asta în contrast cu astrologia sau religia, care sunt pe același nivel, nutreț intelectual pentru proști.
Eşti conştient că propoziţia asta nu spune mare lucru despre astrologie sau religie, dar spune foarte multe despre tine?

Edited by Yoda, 21 July 2020 - 00:36.


#29
Cr1spy

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Da. Unii oameni pot presupune bazandu-se pe ceva, iar altii doar presupun. De-asta am intrebat.

Edited by Cr1spy, 21 July 2020 - 01:04.


#30
penticostalul

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View Postcaiuscorneliu, on 20 iulie 2020 - 22:57, said:

astrologia sau religia, care sunt pe același nivel, nutreț intelectual pentru proști.

View Postwagmich, on 20 iulie 2020 - 23:30, said:

Nu el i-a facut. El doar a constatat. Culmea e ca are dreptate.

Voi astia doi, credeti ca de inteligenti ce sunteti faceti astfel de generalizari prostesti?

#31
penticostalul

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View Postcaiuscorneliu, on 20 iulie 2020 - 23:56, said:

În schimb câți dintre ei pot spune ceva coerent din astronomie?
Pai, destul de multi.
Iti dau aici o lista scurta:

Robert Grosseteste (c.1175–1253): Bishop of Lincoln, he was the central character of the English intellectual movement in the first half of the 13th century and is considered the founder of scientific thought in Oxford. He had a great interest in the natural world and wrote texts on the mathematical sciences of optics, astronomy and geometry. He affirmed that experiments should be used in order to verify a theory, testing its consequences and added greatly to the development of the scientific method.

Ignazio Danti (1536–1586): As bishop of Alatri he convoked a diocesan synod to deal with abuses. He was also a mathematician who wrote on Euclid, an astronomer, and a designer of mechanical devices.

Galileo Galilei (1564–1642): Italian astronomer, physicist, engineer, philosopher, and mathematician who played a major role in the scientific revolution during the Renaissance.

Laurentius Gothus (1565–1646): A professor of astronomy and Archbishop of Uppsala. He wrote on astronomy and theology.

Juan Lobkowitz (1606–1682): Cistercian monk who did work on Combinatorics and published astronomy tables at age 10. He also did works of theology and sermons.

Seth Ward (1617–1689): Anglican Bishop of Salisbury and Savilian Chair of Astronomy from 1649–1661. He wrote Ismaelis Bullialdi astro-nomiae philolaicae fundamenta inquisitio brevis and Astronomia geometrica. He also had a theological/philosophical dispute with Thomas Hobbes and as a bishop was severe toward nonconformists.

Johannes Kepler (1571–1630): Prominent astronomer of the Scientific Revolution, discovered Kepler's laws of planetary motion.

John Michell (1724–1793): English clergyman who provided pioneering insights in a wide range of scientific fields, including astronomy, geology, optics, and gravitation.

Samuel Vince (1749–1821): Cambridge astronomer and clergyman. He wrote Observations on the Theory of the Motion and Resistance of Fluids and The credibility of Christianity vindicated, in answer to Mr. Hume's objections. He won the Copley Medal in 1780, before the period dealt with here ended.

Olinthus Gregory (1774–1841): wrote Lessons Astronomical and Philosophical in 1793 and became mathematical master at the Royal Military Academy in 1802. An abridgment of his 1815 Letters on the Evidences of Christianity was done by the Religious Tract Society.

William Whewell (1794–1866): professor of mineralogy and moral philosophy. He wrote An Elementary Treatise on Mechanics in 1819 and Astronomy and General Physics considered with reference to Natural Theology in 1833. He is the wordsmith who coined the terms "scientist", "physicist", "anode", "cathode" and many other commonly used scientific words.

Temple Chevallier (1794–1873): priest and astronomer who did Of the proofs of the divine power and wisdom derived from the study of astronomy. He also founded the Durham University Observatory, hence the Durham Shield is pictured.
Robert Main (1808–1878): Anglican priest who won the Gold Medal of the Royal Astronomical Society in 1858. Robert Main also preached at the British Association of Bristol.

Enoch Fitch Burr (1818–1907): astronomer and Congregational Church pastor who lectured extensively on the relationship between science and religion. He also wrote Ecce Coelum: or Parish Astronomy in 1867. He once stated that "an undevout astronomer is mad" and held a strong belief in extraterrestrial life.

Sir Robert Boyd (1922–2004): pioneer in British space science who was Vice President of the Royal Astronomical Society. He lectured on faith being a founder of the "Research Scientists' Christian Fellowship" and an important member of its predecessor Christians in Science.

Rod Davies (1930–2015): professor of radio astronomy at the University of Manchester. He was the president of the Royal Astronomical Society in 1987–1989, and director of the Jodrell Bank Observatory in 1988–97. He is best known for his research on the cosmic microwave background and the 21 cm line.

Allan Sandage (1926–2010): astronomer who did not really study Christianity until after age forty. He wrote the article A Scientist Reflects on Religious Belief and made discoveries concerning the Cigar Galaxy.

George Coyne (1933–2020): Jesuit astronomer and former director of the Vatican Observatory.

Freeman Dyson (1923–2020): English-born American theoretical physicist and mathematician, known for his work in quantum electrodynamics, solid-state physics, astronomy and nuclear engineering.

John D. Barrow (born 1952): English cosmologist based at the University of Cambridge who did notable writing on the implications of the Anthropic principle. He is a United Reformed Church member and won the Templeton Prize in 2006. He once held the position of Gresham Professor of Astronomy as well as Gresham Professor of Geometry.
Jocelyn Bell Burnell (born 1943): astrophysicist from Northern Ireland who discovered the first radio pulsars in 1967. She is currently Visiting Professor of Astrophysics at the University of Oxford.
Arnold O. Benz (born 1945): Swiss astrophysicist, currently professor emeritus at ETH Zurich. He is known for his research in plasma astrophysics,in particular heliophysics, and received honorary doctoral degrees from the University of Zurich and The University of the South for his contributions to the dialog with theology.
Katherine Blundell: British astrophysicist who is a Professor of Astrophysics at the University of Oxford and a supernumerary research fellow at St John's College, Oxford. Her research investigates the physics of active galaxies such as quasars and objects in the Milky Way such as microquasars.

Joan Centrella: American astrophysicist known for her research on general relativity, gravity waves, gravitational lenses, and binary black holes. She is the former deputy director of the Astrophysics Science Division at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, and is Executive in Residence for Science and Technology Policy at West Virginia University.

Gerald B. Cleaver: professor in the Department of Physics at Baylor University and head of the Early Universe Cosmology and Strings (EUCOS) division of Baylor's Center for Astrophysics, Space Physics & Engineering Research (CASPER). His research specialty is string phenomenology and string model building. He is linked to BioLogos and among his lectures are ""Faith and the New Cosmology."
Guy Consolmagno (born 1952): American Jesuit astronomer who works at the Vatican Observatory.

George Francis Rayner Ellis (born 1939): professor of Complex Systems in the Department of Mathematics and Applied Mathematics at the University of Cape Town in South Africa. He co-authored The Large Scale Structure of Space-Time with University of Cambridge physicist Stephen Hawking, published in 1973, and is considered one of the world's leading theorists in cosmology. He is an active Quaker and in 2004 he won the Templeton Prize.

Pamela L. Gay (born 1973): American astronomer, educator and writer, best known for her work in astronomical podcasting. Doctor Gay received her PhD from the University of Texas, Austin, in 2002.Her position as both a skeptic and Christian has been noted upon.

Owen Gingerich (born 1930): Mennonite astronomer who went to Goshen College and Harvard. He is Professor Emeritus of Astronomy and of the History of Science at Harvard University and Senior Astronomer Emeritus at the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory. Mr. Gingerich has written about people of faith in science history.
J. Richard Gott (born 1947): professor of astrophysical sciences at Princeton University. He is known for developing and advocating two cosmological theories with the flavor of science fiction: Time travel and the Doomsday argument. When asked of his religious views in relation to his science, Gott responded that "I’m a Presbyterian. I believe in God; I always thought that was the humble position to take. I like what Einstein said: "God is subtle but not malicious." I think if you want to know how the universe started, that's a legitimate question for physics. But if you want to know why it's here, then you may have to know—to borrow Stephen Hawking's phrase—the mind of God."
Monica Grady (born 1958): leading British space scientist, primarily known for her work on meteorites. She is currently Professor of Planetary and Space Science at the Open University.

Antony Hewish (born 1924): British radio astronomer who won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1974 (together with Martin Ryle) for his work on the development of radio aperture synthesis and its role in the discovery of pulsars. He was also awarded the Eddington Medal of the Royal Astronomical Society in 1969. Hewish is a Christian.[Hewish also wrote in his introduction to John Polkinghorne's 2009 Questions of Truth, "The ghostly presence of virtual particles defies rational common sense and is non-intuitive for those unacquainted with physics. Religious belief in God, and Christian belief ... may seem strange to common-sense thinking. But when the most elementary physical things behave in this way, we should be prepared to accept that the deepest aspects of our existence go beyond our common-sense understanding."

Joseph Hooton Taylor Jr. (born 1941): American astrophysicist and Nobel Prize laureate in Physics for his discovery with Russell Alan Hulse of a "new type of pulsar, a discovery that has opened up new possibilities for the study of gravitation." He was the James S. McDonnell Distinguished University Professor in Physics at Princeton University.[293]
Stephen R. Kane (born 1973): Australian astrophysicist who specializes in exoplanetary science. He is a professor of Astronomy and Planetary Astrophysics at the University of California, Riverside and a leading expert on the topic of planetary habitability and the habitable zone of planetary systems.
Jonathan Lunine (born 1959): American planetary scientist and physicist, and the David C. Duncan Professor in the Physical Sciences and Director of the Center for Radiophysics and Space Research at Cornell University.
Barth Netterfield (born 1968): Canadian astrophysicist and Professor in the Department of Astronomy and the Department of Physics at the University of Toronto.
Karin Öberg (born 1982): Swedish astrochemist, professor of Astronomy at Harvard University and leader of the Öberg Astrochemistry Group at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics.
Eric Priest (born 1943): astrophysicist and authority on Solar Magnetohydrodynamics who won the George Ellery Hale Prize among others. He has spoken on Christianity and Science at the University of St. Andrews where he is an Emeritus Professor and is a member of the Faraday Institute. He is also interested in prayer, meditation, and Christian psychology.
Frank J. Tipler (born 1947): mathematical physicist and cosmologist, holding a joint appointment in the Departments of Mathematics and Physics at Tulane University. Tipler has authored books and papers on the Omega Point, which he claims is a mechanism for the resurrection of the dead. His theological and scientific theorizing are not without controversy, but he has some supporters; for instance, Christian theologian Wolfhart Pannenberg has defended his theology,and physicist David Deutsch has incorporated Tipler's idea of an Omega Point.
Rogier Windhorst (born 1955): Dutch astrophysicist who is Foundation Professor of Astrophysics at Arizona State University and Co-Director of the ASU Cosmology Initiative. He is one of the six Interdisciplinary Scientists worldwide for the James Webb Space Telescope, and member of the JWST Flight Science Working Group.
Jennifer Wiseman: Chief of the Laboratory for Exoplanets and Stellar Astrophysics at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center. An aerial of the Center is shown. In addition she is a co-discoverer of 114P/Wiseman-Skiff. In religion is a Fellow of the American Scientific Affiliation and on June 16, 2010 became the new director for the American Association for the Advancement of Science's Dialogue on Science, Ethics, and Religion.



#32
Dude_2nd

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View Postpenticostalul, on 21 iulie 2020 - 01:29, said:


Voi astia doi, credeti ca de inteligenti ce sunteti faceti astfel de generalizari prostesti?
:lol:

#33
caiuscorneliu

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Bravo, mă. Ai pus o listă de oameni care au contribuit la dezvoltările științifice în domeniul astronomiei, mulți dintre ei în perioada în care biserica și religia era în tot și-n toate. Era și periculos să te pui de-a curmezișul religiei, Galileo Galilei, de-acolo de pe listă, a și simțit-o pe propria piele. Apoi lista mai adaugă câteva nume care nu s-au declarat nici pe departe religioase în sensul pe care-l dați voi, cu bărboși care fac lumea în șase zile și pedepsesc necredincioșii. Religia oferă un confort psihic facil, o alinare adusă slăbiciunii umane și poți fi om cult și atins de virusul credințelor absurde.

#34
Dude_2nd

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View Postcaiuscorneliu, on 21 iulie 2020 - 07:07, said:

... i poți fi om cult și atins de virusul credințelor absurde.
cum e Sfantu Sarcovid asta, la care va inchinati ca plavanii , este? :D

#35
heart_of_ice

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View Postcaiuscorneliu, on 21 iulie 2020 - 07:07, said:

Bravo, mă. Ai pus o listă de oameni care au contribuit la dezvoltările științifice în domeniul astronomiei, mulți dintre ei în perioada în care biserica și religia era în tot și-n toate. Era și periculos să te pui de-a curmezișul religiei, Galileo Galilei, de-acolo de pe listă, a și simțit-o pe propria piele. Apoi lista mai adaugă câteva nume care nu s-au declarat nici pe departe religioase în sensul pe care-l dați voi, cu bărboși care fac lumea în șase zile și pedepsesc necredincioșii. Religia oferă un confort psihic facil, o alinare adusă slăbiciunii umane și poți fi om cult și atins de virusul credințelor absurde.

De ce nu studiezi legea lui Moise, să-ți faci o părere despre originea sa?!

#36
caiuscorneliu

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Cine se închină la un virus, blambecule? Ai văzut icoane și altare cu corona? Bine, măcar virusul ăsta e real, nu ca zeul vostru, îl poți vedea la microscopul electronic oricât de nătărău ai fi sau de "necredincios" în el. Sau îl poți experimenta pe propria piele, cum a pățit Pimen turnătorul barbă lungă.

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