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iliberalismul

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26 replies to this topic

#19
xmanyacs77

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 pasilla, on 12 ianuarie 2018 - 20:17, said:

Nu avem  partide cu doctrina  politica [ de nici un fel ].
Ba da.........partide cu doctrina bazata pe cumetrie, nepotisme si santaj!Posted Image

*Primul pe lista este PSD=PDSR=FDSN=FSN...Posted Image

Care nu are nici 1% legatura cu liberalismul autentic!

Edited by xmanyacs77, 12 January 2018 - 20:45.


#20
Geth

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 xmanyacs77, on 12 ianuarie 2018 - 20:09, said:

Deci in acest moment in Romania nu avem partide cu gandire liberala 100%. Posted Image
Nici nu exista vreo doctrina foarte precisa, ca sa vorbim de 100%. Dar ALDE sta bine in linii mari(dupa cum statea si vechiul PNL). Pulimea insa are frica de aceasta doctrina si nu-s multi care sa voteze un astfel de partid, de aceea liberalii sunt mereu nevoiti sa se asocieze cu altii(in alianta da s-au aliat cu PD, acum cu PSD).

#21
Hunor_66

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La modul simplist, in doua cuvinte:

Liberalismul promoveaza democratia populara si dreptul de vot universal.
Astfel incat, si un asistat social si un cetatean de mare valoare pentru natiunea lui, au aceeasi valoare a votului.

Iliberalismul spune ca, in anumite conditii, natiunile trebuie sa acorde o mai mare importanta cetatenilor valorosi pentru natiune, si dreptul lor de vot sa atarne mai greu in balanta puterii, decat voturile unor simpli cetateni, fara calitati deosebite.

In Europa, un model iliberal este Marea Britanie, cu a sa Camera a Lorzilor, reprezentanti ai fostei aristocratii, care prin voturile ei putea corecta oarecum si in anumite limite votul Camerei Comunelor. (Aceasta influenta a Camerei Lorzilor o tot scazut in ultimele decenii).

In multe tari, in perioada interbelica o fost democratie iliberala, exprimata prin votul cenzitar.

Edited by Hunor_66, 12 January 2018 - 21:43.


#22
Geth

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 Hunor_66, on 12 ianuarie 2018 - 21:41, said:

Liberalismul promoveaza democratia populara si dreptul de vot universal.
Fals total. Liberalismul clasic(adica cel adevarat), nici macar nu are democratia printre valorile principale. De ce? Fiindca liberalismul clasic e preocupat in principal de libertatile individului si libertatile economice. Nu exista nicio garantie ca opiniile celor multi(democratia) vor favoriza libertatile individului(si intr-adevar, nu prea le favorizeaza)

* mica lamurire legata de "liberalism clasic, adevarat": social democratii din sua au furat termenul liberalism pentru forma lor de social-democratie(care nu e nicicum preocupata de libertatile individului), iar de aici uneori se nasc confuzii(sper ca am lamurit)

#23
xmanyacs77

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Oare un Partid Liberal Autentic ar putea sa polarizeze voturile celor nemultumiti de viata din Romania? Posted Image

Edited by xmanyacs77, 12 January 2018 - 22:15.


#24
argonaut

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 xmanyacs77, on 12 ianuarie 2018 - 22:14, said:

Oare un Partid Liberal Autentic ar putea sa polarizeze voturile celor nemultumiti de viata din Romania? Posted Image

Iti dau o veste proasta : In Romania orice Partid Liberal, oricat de Autentic ar fi nu va polariza nici boschetarii de la Gara de Nord !

#25
vpiti

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Ideea de democratie iliberala nu este a lui Orban - Fareed Zaakaria scria despre asta in 1997 (articolul atasat). Viziunea mea, deoarece nu stiu sa existe vreun consens pe tema asta: vorbim de un stat in care cei de la conducere sunt alesi in mod democratic dar acestia nu respecta libertatile civile, politice, liberatea presei, domnia legii, transparenta si celelalte calitati ale unei democratii liberale (cred ca scorurile oferite de Freedom House sunt relevante in contextul asta).
Relevant cred ca este si discursul lui Orban de la Baile Tusnad, mai exact bucata aceasta (merita citit tot)

Quote

What is happening in Hungary today can accordingly be interpreted by stating that the prevailing political leadership has today attempted to ensure that people’s personal work and interests, which must be acknowledged, are closely linked to the life of the community and the nation, and that this relationship is preserved and reinforced. In other words, the Hungarian nation is not simply a group of individuals but a community that must be organised, reinforced and in fact constructed. And so in this sense the new state that we are constructing in Hungary is an illiberal state, a non-liberal state. It does not reject the fundamental principles of liberalism such as freedom, and I could list a few more, but it does not make this ideology the central element of state organisation, but instead includes a different, special, national approach.
Ce inteleg eu din asta (si e posibil sa ma insel, limbajul fiind destul de criptic) e ca doreste crearea unui stat in care interesele natiunii sunt supreme chiar daca urmarirea acestora inseamna restrangerea libertatilor cetatenilor.  
Tot dintr-un raport Freedom House despre Ungaria

Quote

illiberalism involves a wholesale rejection of liberal values and democratic norms, with all that this implies for politics and governance. Fidesz’s “reform” efforts have been less concerned with the repression of unpopular minorities than with the creation of a system in which the institutions of pluralism are hollowed out and the ruling party’s dominance is assured over the long term.
Having come to office with a two-thirds parliamentary majority in 2010, Orbán was able to rewrite the constitution without the consent of the opposition. He rushed through a series of constitutional changes, cardinal laws (requiring a two-thirds vote to change or remove), and regular laws that had the effect of turning the Hungarian political system upside down.
Among the steps taken by Fidesz after its 2010 triumph:
The Constitutional Court was overhauled so that Fidesz appointees became a majority and its jurisdiction was narrowed.5
The government eliminated the independent Fiscal Council, responsible for overseeing budgetary policy, then replaced it with a new council under Fidesz control.
A new election law created gerrymandered legislative districts that were favorable to Fidesz.6
Orbán gave voting rights to ethnic Hungarians in neighboring countries, who were likely to support Fidesz.7
The government created a new press authority whose chair and members were Fidesz loyalists. The authority was given wide-ranging powers to fine media outlets.8
While the measures listed above were some of the most notorious of the Fidesz initiatives, in some cases drawing critical attention from European oversight bodies, they represent only part of the campaign that has transformed Hungary into a full-fledged illiberal democracy.
Perhaps the more far-reaching measures introduced under Orban have been in the economic sphere. Since 2010, Hungary has evolved into a crony capitalist state par excellence. But unlike in outright kleptocracies such as Russia, where the regime itself is organized around the plunder of public wealth by the ruling clique, Orbán has used state laws and procurement contracts to create a wealthy Fidesz-affiliated business constituency that can finance political campaigns, reward party supporters, and operate friendly media outlets. The enrichment of cronies is less an objective in itself than a means of fortifying the dominant political party against any future challenge from the opposition.9

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#26
doxan

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Zaakaria e musulman, mare propagandist liberal la CNN care de ani de zile arunca cu laturi in conservatori.

#27
pro-civilizatie

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fiind un cuvant abstract,el poate avea sensuri diferite,in functie de timp si loc.
in usa liberal inseamna socialist. in europa inseamna capitalist(exact opusul)

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