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#1
vyctoras1985

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m-am uitat pe tema fuziunii si am inteles conceptele de confinement magnetic si inertial.
intrebarea ar fi la confinementul magnetic de ce s-a ales forma toroidala pentru aparatele de fuziune? ce avantaj aduce aceasta forma?

#2
arg

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uaaaaaaa, dar roata de ce e rotunda?

Edited by arg, 07 March 2017 - 09:54.


#3
vyctoras1985

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Pai nu inteleg de ce nu se poate face exact ca la acceleratoarele  liniare?

#4
arg

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Ia gandeste-te ce sa intampla cand ajunge la capat in cazul unuia liniar?
La unul toroidal practic se invarte/accelereaza in cerc pana la viteza necesara si pe urma iese pe unde trebuie.
In final este mai ieftin cel toroidal.

p.s. poti da un exemplu de echipament?

Edited by arg, 07 March 2017 - 10:08.


#5
Bursul

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Magnetic confinement fusion attempts to create the conditions needed for fusion energy production by using the electrical conductivity of the plasma to contain it with magnetic fields. The basic concept can be thought of in a fluid picture as a balance between magnetic pressure and plasma pressure, or in terms of individual particles spiraling along magnetic field lines.
The pressure achievable is usually on the order of one bar with a confinement time up to a few seconds.[1] In contrast, inertial confinement has a much higher pressure but a much lower confinement time. Most magnetic confinement schemes also have the advantage of being more or less steady state, as opposed to the inherently pulsed operation of inertial confinement.
The simplest magnetic configuration is a solenoid, a long cylinder wound with magnetic coils producing a field with the lines of force running parallel to the axis of the cylinder. Such a field would hinder ions and electrons from being lost radially, but not from being lost from the ends of the solenoid.
There are two approaches to solving this problem. One is to try to stop up the ends with a magnetic mirror, the other is to eliminate the ends altogether by bending the field lines around to close on themselves. A simple toroidal field, however, provides poor confinement because the radial gradient of the field strength results in a drift in the direction of the axis.

Pe wiki l-ai citit? Iti ajunge textul asta sa intelegi? P.S. dupa ce ai inteles sa ne explici si noua, ca eu-s chiar bata la asa ceva.

Edited by Bursul, 07 March 2017 - 10:11.


#6
aeon

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View Postvyctoras1985, on 07 martie 2017 - 10:03, said:

Pai nu inteleg de ce nu se poate face exact ca la acceleratoarele  liniare?

pai o fi o chestie de costuri si eficienta, ori facem un cerc cu diametrul de 1km si invartim o particula de 10.000 de ori, ori facem o linie de 10.000 km lungime, iese cam acelasi lucru..
as zice ca tunelul de 10k km e cam lung, dar poate merge proptit de un satelit, ceva Posted Image

#7
vyctoras1985

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Pai de ce se pune problema ca fuziunea sa aiba loc la capat in solenoid?  De ce pur si simplu nu la mijloc?  Problema fiind la confinement magnetic cum reusesti sa creezi o densitate in asa fel incat majoritatea particulelor sa aiba fuziune.  Altfel e indiferent pe la ce capat scapa... Fie in solenoid fie tokamak
Da stiu si de ITER si de JET de cel de la culham in anglia,  si alte cateva.

View Postaeon, on 07 martie 2017 - 10:15, said:



pai o fi o chestie de costuri si eficienta, ori facem un cerc cu diametrul de 1km si invartim o particula de 10.000 de ori, ori facem o linie de 10.000 km lungime, iese cam acelasi lucru..
as zice ca tunelul de 10k km e cam lung, dar poate merge proptit de un satelit, ceva Posted Image
Imi explici cum invarti in tokamak sau accelerezi in solenoid la vitezele alea?  Astea NU sunt LHC care are alt scop.

Oricum se poate face un hibrid solenoid-tokamak.  In care tokamakul accelereaza si solenoidul ciocnește

#8
myshyk

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View PostBursul, on 07 martie 2017 - 10:10, said:

Magnetic confinement fusion attempts to create the conditions needed for fusion energy production by using the electrical conductivity of the plasma to contain it with magnetic fields. The basic concept can be thought of in a fluid picture as a balance between magnetic pressure and plasma pressure, or in terms of individual particles spiraling along magnetic field lines.
The pressure achievable is usually on the order of one bar with a confinement time up to a few seconds.[1] In contrast, inertial confinement has a much higher pressure but a much lower confinement time. Most magnetic confinement schemes also have the advantage of being more or less steady state, as opposed to the inherently pulsed operation of inertial confinement.
The simplest magnetic configuration is a solenoid, a long cylinder wound with magnetic coils producing a field with the lines of force running parallel to the axis of the cylinder. Such a field would hinder ions and electrons from being lost radially, but not from being lost from the ends of the solenoid.
There are two approaches to solving this problem. One is to try to stop up the ends with a magnetic mirror, the other is to eliminate the ends altogether by bending the field lines around to close on themselves. A simple toroidal field, however, provides poor confinement because the radial gradient of the field strength results in a drift in the direction of the axis.

Pe wiki l-ai citit? Iti ajunge textul asta sa intelegi? P.S. dupa ce ai inteles sa ne explici si noua, ca eu-s chiar bata la asa ceva.
Nu citeste decat de pe forum. Credeam ca e destul de vizibil.

#9
arg

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[ https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/PWCqwZoE0FY?feature=oembed - Pentru incarcare in pagina (embed) Click aici ]

#10
arg

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View Postmyshyk, on 07 martie 2017 - 10:45, said:

Nu citeste decat de pe forum. Credeam ca e destul de vizibil.
problema este ca si pe forum citeste din 2 in 3.

#11
vyctoras1985

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View Postmyshyk, on 07 martie 2017 - 10:45, said:

Nu citeste decat de pe forum. Credeam ca e destul de vizibil.
trebuia sa vii tu pe topicul asta.....

View Postarg, on 07 martie 2017 - 10:46, said:

[ https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/PWCqwZoE0FY?feature=oembed - Pentru incarcare in pagina (embed) Click aici ]
stiu ....am citit astea si de pe wiki.
am si carti pe asa ceva.
chestiunea e de densitate. cum poti avea o densitate suficienta incat sa se produca in un timp scurt numeroase reactii de fuziune.
de aia eu sunt mai apropiat de solutia confinementului inertial. din cate stiu eu NIF este primul care a reusit in 2013 sa aiba un output mai mare decat imputul.
eu ma gandeam chiar la realizarea de nanopeleti prin tehnologia fotolitografiei. in asa fel incat miscarea nucleelor in interiorul peletilor si energia care intra per pelete sa fie controlate incat sa se obtina o un randament mai mare al fuziunilor

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