Originea românilor
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Naga


QUOTE(thefairyteller @ Oct 20 2005, 13:18) *
Multumesc frumos pentru raspuns!


Cu placere. peacefingers.gif
Ar trebui adaugat ca indo-europenii au ajuns sa se raspandeasca pana in vestul Chinei (actuala provincie Xingjiang), fapt dovedit de mumiile descoperite acolo:

" Many of the mummies have been found in very good condition, owing to the dryness of the desert, and the desiccation of the corpses it induced. They share Europoid or Caucasoid body features (slender, elongated bodies, angular faces, recessed eyes), and many of them have their hair intact, ranging in color from blond to red to deep brown, and generally long, curly and braided. Their costumes, and especially textiles, generally indicate a common origin with European neolithic clothing techniques.

The most famous mummies are the tall, red-haired "Ur-David" or the "Cherchen man"; his son, a small 1-year-old baby with blond hair protruding from under a red and blue felt cap, and blue stones in place of the eyes; the "Hammi Mummy"; a "red-headed beauty" found in Qizilchoqa; and the "Witches of Subeshi", who wore tall pointed hats."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mummies
Sirius
QUOTE(Diogene @ Oct 19 2005, 18:57) *
Perle de-a lui Sirius:
....................


Ce faci nene, te apuci sa-mi scoti din context vorbele?! Esti mullllllllllllttt mai marunt decat credeam. Uneori pe langa cunostinte despre istorie mai trebuie sa ai si altceva!

De ex:" "poate prima națiune din lume constituită pe alte baze decât genetice"....pai civilizatiile indiene existau pe vremea aia, si sigur nu erau constituite pe baze genetice! "...... e un raspuns la tampenia afirmata de tine cum ca "romanii n-ar fi un popor constituit pe baze genetice". La fel si celelalte! Sunt scoase din context ! Eventual suna asa pentru ca am raspuns cu "exprimarile" tale.

Intamplarea face ca zilele astea sa nu am timp de fazele astea de 2 lei, dar daca tii neaparat iti acord mai mult timp saptamana viitoare! Chit ca e dezagreabil sa te bagi in mocirla. Vad ca altora le place!
 
Naga
Se pare ca in India se duce o lupta similara cu cea purtata de "romanii verzi"de aici. smile.gif Teoria invaziei ariene este respinsa pentru a sustine ideea unei "continuitati" hinduse vechi de milenii etc. Un articol interesant pe aceasta tema:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Invasion_Theory

Eu am gasit unele pasaje vedice traduse de autori europeni in care Indra si altii erau descrisi ca blonzi iar adversarii lor ca "negriciosi". Se pare ca unii autori indieni considera ca sunt greseli de traducere si ca doar in Ramayana ar aparea asa ceva. huh.gif Cred ca ar fi interesant sa il intrebam pe kapalika ce parere are el referitor la problema asta. peacefingers.gif

Uite un pasaj interesant despre ce apare scris in Rig Veda, cea mai veche scriere din traditia vedica, acolo unde autori europeni sustin ca Indra este descris ca fiind blond:

Rig Veda
The Rigveda is by far the most archaic testimony of Vedic Sanskrit. It describes a pastoral or nomadic, mobile culture, still centered on the Indo-Iranian Soma cult and fire worship. The purely nomadic and/or pastoral character of the Rig Vedic people is however disputed. The mobile nature of the Vedic religion is illustrated by the laying out of the ritual precinct as part of the ritual, rather than the existence of fixed temples. This holds for the invitation of Indra to the Soma ritual as well as for the Agnicayana, the piling-up of the fire altar. Cities or fortresses (púra) are mentioned in the Rigveda mainly as the abode of hostile peoples, while the Aryan tribes live in vísha, a term translated as "settlement, homestead, house, dwelling", but also "community, tribe, troops".

Indra in particular is described as destroyer of fortresses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration
Diogene
Secuii nu pot fi avari, cum susține "școala" franceză, pentru că:

- întâlnirea ungurilor cu niște "avari" atât de numeroși și de separați precum au fost strămoșii secuilor, s-ar fi lăsat cu ceva bătălii

- dacă au păstorit atât de numeroase turme de români și slavoni, avarii trebuiau până la urmă să fi fost asimilați în turme. La întrebarea "unde au dispărut avarii?" se poate răspunde: " fiți vigilenți, îndărătul unui zâmbet larg se poate ascunde un suflet hapsân; avarii sunt printre noi".

Aceastea sun argumente de logică. "Logicul" nu este greșit niciodată. El doar se îmbogățește cu noi idei de la "istoric"... până ajunge la afirmația contrară.

QUOTE(rakoczy @ Oct 19 2005, 23:46) *
peacefingers.gif peacefingers.gif peacefingers.gif

@Diogene:

S-ar putea să fie și khazară scrierea respectivă.

exact! biggrin.gif nu mergea fara ei! naughty.gif

thefairyteller, iti multumesc pentru aprecieri. meritul e al lui Diogene.

maine raspunsuri detaliate. smile.gif
rakoczy
mai explicit?
Székely_M
Transylvania was part and parcel of the Hungarian Kingdom, or an independent Hungarian Principality for over a thousand years.

As an integral part of the Hungarian Kingdom, Transylvania and Kolozsvár was drawn into the Western Christian Culture Circle at the beginning of the eleventh century. The architecture of old Transylvanian cities, such as Nagyvárad , Kolozsvár , Marosvásárhely, Brassó or Dés bear witness to this fact. Besides a few scattered ruins of Roman fortifications, destroyed by the retreating Roman legions in 271 A.D., no sign of any kind would indicate a trace of an older established culture preceding the arrival of the Hungarians. Not even the legends, folk tales, ballads or folk songs of any one of the cohabiting ethnic groups suggest anything of this kind, except the oldest Hungarian (Székely) legends which date back to the time of Attila and the empire of the Huns.

If we examine the folk art, which is the most tell-tale expression of early influences, we find that the embroideries and architecture of the Transylvanian Germans relates to the embroideries and architecture of those districts of Germany where these settlers came from in the 12th and 13th centuries. In the same way, the folk art of the Transylvanian Romanians is identical with those of Moldavia and Wallachia, and they clearly show the Slavic influences, the Bulgarian, Greek, and important Albanian motifs, picked up by the migrating Vlach herdsmen on their way from the Albanian border to their present location. On the other hand, the famous art creations of the Transylvanian Hungarians, like those of Kalotaszeg, Csík, Haromszék, Udvarhely carry a basic similarity with those of other parts of Hungary, and clearly relate back to ancient Turanian (Scythian) motifs of Sumeria and Babilon.




Due to the close relations of the medieval Hungarian Kingdom with the West, talented Transylvanians found their ways to the early Universities of Europe as early as the 12th and 13th centuries. The very first student whose name became officially registered at the University of Oxford in 1193, was Miklós of Hungary, son of Kende, nobleman of Transylvania. During the 15th century there were three famous Hungarian doctors on the faculty of the University of Bologna, and one of them, Péter Pál Apati of Torda, later founded the "Free Collegium of the Noble Sciences", established in his hometown, Torda, then moved to Kolozsvár (today Cluj) by King Matthias. After the two Hungarian Universities were established, Pécs in 1367, and Buda in 1389, many Transylvanians sent their sons there, some of whom, after returning home, founded one by one the "Collegiums" of High Learning in Nagyenyed, Gyulafehérvar, Kolozsvár, Nagyvárad, Brassó, Arad, Zilah and Marosvásárhely.




Due to the ecclesiastical domination of Rome as in other Western empires, the official language of science and administration in the Hungarian Kingdom was Latin. Therefore it was only in 1527 that the first book was printed in the Hungarian language in Kolozsvár. In 1598 there were already 24 printing establishments in Transylvania, publishing by that date 382 books, of which 368 were in the Hungarian language. There were 18 Transylvanian Hungarians enroled at the Wittenberg University in the year of 1586. Many Transylvanian Hungarians were teaching at famous Western Universities, while several famous Western scientists, such as Martin Opitz, John Alstead, Henry Bisterfeld and Isaac Basire taught in Transylvanian colleges during the 16th and 17th centuries. In 1545 the complete translation of the Bible appeared in the Hungarian language, printed in Kolozsvár. Shortly after, in 1582, financed by Hungarians and translated by Hungarians. the Bible was published in the Vlach language. In the 14th century two Transylvanian Hungarian brothers, Márton and György Kolozsvári, were famous sculptors. Most of their works were demolished through the many wars, except the well known statue of St.George in the city of Prague, which is today recognized as one of the greatest monuments of Gothic sculpture.

Thus Transylvania, as part of Hungary, became the center of Hungarian culture. During the most troubled times of Central European history, when the conflict between Catholicism and Protestantism set fire to the emotions, in Transylvania the Hungarian preacher and philosopher Ferenc Dávid (1535-1579) was able to found and establish the Unitarian Church, and persuade the Congress of Torda in 1568 to declare, for the first time in the world, the freedom of religion.

It is indeed not accidental that man's God-given right to choose his own religion and to worship freely and undisturbed was first recognized and legalized in Transylvania. This was a direct result of the Hungarian concept of freedom, as well as the respect toward the freedom of others, which permeated the entire Hungarian state-concept, and enabled the Hungarians to rule the Carpathian Basin successfully for a thousand years. This secured free development to every ethnic group which asked permission to settle within the Hungarian borders.

Even after 1711, when Hungarian political independence was completely lost to Habsburg oppression, Hungarian culture in Transylvania not only kept in step with the cultural evolution of the rest of the country, but in many instances it became the guiding force of spiritual and cultural resistance. In fields of sciences, art and literature, Transylvania became the torch-bearer to the rest of oppressed Hungary. The same phenomenon repeated itself after 1849, when the Liberty War was crushed by the combined forces of Austria and Russia, and the darkness of revengeful oppression fell upon Hungary for the second time.

It might be interesting to note that the first English-Tibetan dictionary was published in 1834 by a young Transylvanian Hungarian explorer, Sándor Kőrösi Csoma. The era between 1820 and 1867 is also regarded by many as the "golden age" of Hungarian national literature, brought forth by Habsburg oppression. Many of the great names in Hungarian literature were from Transylvania, such as Ferenc Kazinczy (1759-1831), Ferenc Kölcsey (1790-1838) Mihály Tompa (1817-1868) and others.




In 1867 the "reconciliation" between Emperor Franz Joseph and the Hungarian nation opened the gates toward industrialization and economic upswing. Though economic progress was much slower reaching into Transylvania than in other parts of Hungary - due to distances, lack of roads, etc. - the revitalization of the Hungarian culture reached a new peak in Kolozsvár and the other Transylvanian cities. During the glorious years of the "millennium", Transylvania proudly celebrated its thousand-year-old cultural heritage within the framework of the thousand-year-old Hungarian national frontiers.

When in 1919 the Rumanian army occupied Transylvania, and the brutal persecution of Hungarian officials, clergymen, educators and other intellectuals began with unprecedented Balkanic ferocity, Hungarian stamina was put to test. In Kolozsvár the Romanian army killed the major of the city on Christmas Eve and massacred innocent civilians of Hungarian nationality without any consideration on children, women and elders. The civilized World was shocked by the cruel and barbarian methods of the Rumanian army.

Within a few weeks all geographical locations were renamed, from cities down to the most remote villages. Kolozsvár was changed overnight into Cluj, Nagyvárad into Oradea, Marosvásárhely into Tirgu Mures, Temesvár into Timisoara, etc. Many names were simply translated, such as Disznós into Porcu, Medvepatak into Ursu, Nagybánya into Baia Mare, Szentegyed into Sinte Jude, etc. Street markers were replaced and streets renamed. Those who were born and raised in one of the Transylvanian towns, and lived there all their lives, suddenly had to change their old established home address to a new-one, in a foreign language they did not even know how to pronounce. City halls, court houses, district offices, post offices, railroad stations were filled with new officials, imported from across the mountains, who did not speak the language of the population. Huge signs appeared everywhere: VORBITI NUMAI RUMUNESTI ! Speak only Rumanian. Those citizens who were unable to obey these signs because did not speak the Romanian language, were refused service, abused, and sometimes even beaten by the new police.




The urban intellectuals of Transylvania suffered the most. Put out of their jobs, many of them were forced to leave the country. Others shifted into commerce or industry. Some of them became labourers, while many rallied around the only bulwarks left for Transylvanian culture: the churches, church-affiliated schools, and other cultural institutions, such as libraries, museums, civic societies, benevolent organizations, etc which were not yet dependent on the State. Rigid censorship was instituted by the Rumanian government toward Hungarian publications of any kind. In spite of this, by 1926 Transylvania had more Hungarian monthly periodicals, weekly publication, and daily newspapers than ever before. It was the automatic reaction of Hungarian national consciousness taking refuge in culture against the brutal oppression of a foreign and inferior civilization. Gy. Zathureczky writes in his book "Transylvania, Citadel of the West" (Danubian Press, 1967) page 46: "The Transylvania (Hungarian) Press, suffering under heavy censorship, lost its provincial character and rose to European level. The Transylvanian Literary Guild and the Transylvania Helikon gathered the writers and established a Hungarian Publishing Co-operative. A new and specifically Transylvanian literature was born. Struggling against poverty, and harassed by Romanian authorities, the Transylvanian Hungarian stage reached an unprecedented peak against all odds." In spite of the brutal political and economical oppression of a Balkan force, Transylvania remained part of the Western Culture. Just as an Austrian journalist aptly observed in the "Wiener Tagblatt", July 27, 1934: "Travelling through Transylvania one cannot help noticing that while the policeman on the street corner speaks only Romanian, within the walls of old town houses there is a very lively Hungarian cultural life going on, discussing with foreign guests Western ideas, Western literature, Western art, sometimes in three or four languages in the same time - none of which happens to be the language of the policeman down on the corner ...". Further down he stated: "The very fact that in those highly cultured Transylvanian circles everyone knows the names of German, French, English and American writers, scientists, actors, painters, but no one seems to know anything that goes on in Bucharest, shows clearly that in spite of the so-called 'peace treaties' the cultural boundaries between East and West are still firmly drawn on the ridges of the Carpathians ..."

Even 20 years after the Rumanian take-over, Transylvania supported 38 periodicals in the Hungarian language, 5 Hungarian literary societies, and 12 Hungarian publishing houses. Twenty-seven Hungarian writers in Transylvania had one or more books published in foreign countries, while the Hungarian theatre of Kolozsvár was regarded by talent scouts all over the world as the springboard to fame for talented actors and actresses. Hungarian painters of Transylvania frequently toured Europe with their exhibits, and the Hungarian folk art of Kalotaszeg, Csík, Háromszék and Udvarhely reached the foreign markets with their embroidery and wood carvings.

In spite of the political oppression and the strong economical discrimination, the dominant culture in Transylvania remained the Western oriented Hungarian culture, followed by the German in the German districts. Those few Rumanian authors, poets and artists who were born Transylvanians, were absorbed by Bucharest and the "Regat" (Old Kingdom), and had no contact whatsoever with the representatives of either the Hungarian or the German cultural circles in Transylvania. The name of Octavian Goga, the excellent Romanian poet, who though born in Transylvania, became known only among Hungarians and Germans after he was selected by the king of Romania to be the prime-minister of the country.

In August 1940, when Northern Transylvania was returned to the Mother Country, it took only one day for such cities as Kolozsvár, Nagyvárad, Marosvásárhely to wipe off every trace of a Romanian occupation, and turn back into the thriving Hungarian cities they had been for hundreds of years. However, after World War II. when the Russian army handed Transylvania over to the Romanian government as a compensation for Bessarabia, all this has changed drastically. Hungarian publishing establishments were shut down. Within the new Romanian framework one single state-owned publishing establishment was formed to "serve the Hungarian cultural needs", not in Transylvania, but in Bucharest. This establishment, named "Kriterion", was allowed to publish only government-approved material, mostly translations from Romanian and Russian, and only a few ideologically sterilized Hungarian authors in limited editions.

Even Hungarian language Bibles, donated by American Presbyterian Churches to the Transylvanian Calvinist Church were confiscated and turned into toilet paper. Public monuments, statues, historic markers were systematically destroyed and replaced with new ones, reflecting the new Romanian-dictated atmosphere. Old tombstones were destroyed, ancient churches "remodelled" in such a way that they lost their Hungarian character. The entire history was re-written, and the newly created false "history" is systematically introduced to the new generations. Even those very few Hungarian-language schools which are still left to operate must teach this falsified history to their pupils, according to which Transylvania is the "original homeland" of the Rumanian people, and the Hungarians were the "intruders" who ruled the native Rumanians by terror. According to the law, the presence of two Romanian children in any school suffice to have the language of instruction changed from Hungarian to Romanian. In schools where the language of instructions is Romanian, the children are forbidden to speak Hungarian among themselves, even during recess. Those children who disobey this rule are severely beaten by their teachers. Since the Romanian government has already brought more than 600,000 new Romanian settlers into Transylvania from Bessarabia, Bukovina and other parts of "old Romania" while in the same time deporting more than 300,000 Hungarians from their native land, it is clear that there is a well-planned cultural genocide going on, fully using the "unlimited possibilities" and brutalities of a totalitarian regime. During the second Word War half a million of Hungarians and Hungarian speaking Jews were killed by Romanian Army and other paramilitary organizations.




In order to destroy every trace of the past, the Romanian government first nationalized, then systematically destroyed every old document preserved in Church archives, museums, libraries or private homes.

It is indeed fortunate that many of the ancient Transylvanian documents, dating back as far as the 11th century, were transferred to the Hungarian National Archives in Budapest, some before World War I, and others during World War II. Thus, in spite of all the Rumanian efforts to eradicate the past, the true history of Transylvania can still be proven by thousands of ancient documents and the traces of the once great Western-oriented culture of the Hungarians in Transylvania can still be found in libraries and museums, not in Hungary alone, but also in Austria, Germany, Italy, France, England, and the United States of America.

The Romanian culture is entirely different from that known as the "Transylvanian culture", which is in reality a regional diversity of the West-oriented Hungarian culture. The Rumanian culture is Balkan-oriented, and specifically Rumanian, based on the history of the Vlach migration from South across to Albania, and from there up to Wallachia and Moldavia. It was brought forth by Balkan influences, just as the Romanian language itself, which is composed, according to the Romanian linguist Cihac, "of 45.7% Slavic, 31.5% Latin, 8.4% Turkish, 7% Greek, 6% Hungarian and 0.6% Albanian words." Even today, the Romanian culture as such, has no roots in Transylvania. It is being "imported" constantly and purposefully from Bucharest into the Transylvanian province in order to crowd out and replace the traditional Hungarian culture of this conquered and subjugated land.

Future of Transylvania and its capital Kolozsvár is to return to Central Europe and to Hungarian Culture where it belongs. Transylvania was GIVEN to Romania in 1921, and again in 1947, without a plebiscite. This notorious Treaty is known as The Diktat of Trianon, Hungarians were forced to sign in Paris. Ever since Transylvania was awarded to Romania, Hungarians, Germans and other ethnic minorities have suffered at the hands of Romanian Chauvinists. They have consistently and systematically been subjest to forced assimilation and persecution. Romania is probably the most xenophobic country in Europe today. Romanians in cities like Marosvásárhely (targu mures) and Kolozsvár (cluj) are practising ethnic cleansing an a scale only seen in former Yugoslavia. Hungarians are subject to constant discrimination, Hungarian signs are painted over or not allowed at all, intimidation by Gheorghe Funar is carried out against Hungarians on a daily basis aimed at driving out all Hungarians from this ancient Magyar land.
TAPAS
QUOTE(rakoczy @ Oct 20 2005, 22:55) *
mai explicit?


lasa ca e explicit szekely m cat pentru 15.


QUOTE(Székely_M @ Oct 21 2005, 01:33) *
The Romanian culture is entirely different from that known as the "Transylvanian culture", which is in reality a regional diversity of the West-oriented Hungarian culture. The Rumanian culture is Balkan-oriented, and specifically Rumanian, based on the history of the Vlach migration from South across to Albania, and from there up to Wallachia and Moldavia. It was brought forth by Balkan influences, just as the Romanian language itself, which is composed, according to the Romanian linguist Cihac, "of 45.7% Slavic, 31.5% Latin, 8.4% Turkish, 7% Greek, 6% Hungarian and 0.6% Albanian words." Even today, the Romanian culture as such, has no roots in Transylvania. It is being "imported" constantly and purposefully from Bucharest into the Transylvanian province in order to crowd out and replace the traditional Hungarian culture of this conquered and subjugated land.

Future of Transylvania and its capital Kolozsvár is to return to Central Europe and to Hungarian Culture where it belongs. Transylvania was GIVEN to Romania in 1921, and again in 1947, without a plebiscite. This notorious Treaty is known as The Diktat of Trianon, Hungarians were forced to sign in Paris. Ever since Transylvania was awarded to Romania, Hungarians, Germans and other ethnic minorities have suffered at the hands of Romanian Chauvinists. They have consistently and systematically been subjest to forced assimilation and persecution. Romania is probably the most xenophobic country in Europe today. Romanians in cities like Marosvásárhely (targu mures) and Kolozsvár (cluj) are practising ethnic cleansing an a scale only seen in former Yugoslavia. Hungarians are subject to constant discrimination, Hungarian signs are painted over or not allowed at all, intimidation by Gheorghe Funar is carried out against Hungarians on a daily basis aimed at driving out all Hungarians from this ancient Magyar land.


Mie imi plac cel mai mult pasajele astea doua.
 
rakoczy
QUOTE(TAPAS @ Oct 21 2005, 00:41) *
lasa ca e explicit szekely m cat pentru 15.
Mie imi plac cel mai mult pasajele astea doua.




@ They have consistently and systematically been subjest to forced assimilation and persecution. Romania is probably the most xenophobic country in Europe today. Romanians in cities like Marosvásárhely (targu mures) and Kolozsvár (cluj) are practising ethnic cleansing an a scale only seen in former Yugoslavia. Hungarians are subject to constant discrimination, Hungarian signs are painted over or not allowed at all, intimidation by Gheorghe Funar is carried out against Hungarians on a daily basis aimed at driving out all Hungarians from this ancient Magyar land.

sper ca nu supara adevarul...
rakoczy
QUOTE(sosok @ Oct 20 2005, 10:22) *
ei? care e treaba? huh.gif
ce scrie pe piatra aia? ceva important? de cand e datata?
cred ca e ceva aici.... huh.gif tainic! prea se invart toti in jurul ideii asteia?
Rakoczi baci, unde e pietroiul acela?
e o varianta, interesanta. nu am date despre asta, insa. confusedsmiley.png



he-he!
daca ai cunoaste cate PM am primit despre asta......

ciudat.... naughty.gif
Diogene


Este desigur ceva adevar, cum si mesajul in discutie exprimă realitatea a ceea ce să mai găsește în scăfârlia cuiva.
Sper să nu fie mulți care gândesc ca el. Nu de alta, dar nu mi-ar plecea să vă prea mulți unguri de-ăștia uciși sau alungați de ceva organizații teroriste.
Cine va mai purta visul Marii Ungarii dacă ei vor fi eliminați?

Dacă mai jumătate din teritoriul României a fost parte din Ungaria Mare, eu cred că ar trebui să ne asumăm istoria Ungariei 896-1526, cu toți regii, eșecurile, neputința ei, ca și istoria Transilvaniei 1541-1699. Există deja istorici români care se ocupă conștiincios de Imperiul Habsburgic și de Austro-Ungaria și încearcă să explice de ce a fost un proiect neviabil - un ghinion uriaș pentru Europa Centrală.

Și principala explicație este, cel puțin după cum văd acum lucrurile, ar fi în caracterul limitat, provincial al culturii maghiare, dovedit și de aerul de superioritate din mesajul de mai sus, în impotența de nobilime scăpătată a claselor diriguitoare maghiare. Austriecii i-au "oprimat foarte tare", dar nu au ieșit din Imperiu ca să nu o capete de la români și poate de la alții (croați, slovaci) care susțineau Imperiul. Probabil că dacă ar fi făcut așa ceva, Ungaria era și mai mică azi.

La ce folosește "triannonita" asta de isterică?

Un expozeul domnului sunt multe lucruri reale, precum povestea cu toleranța religioasă, de care ca ardelean, român din cele mai vechi timpuri ("1874" este inscripția de pe o ladă a străbunicii), sunt chiar mândru. Transilvania acelor timpuri era o mică putere regională, respectată de toți.

Dacă tot vorbea de cultura română putea să spună că după 1700 până la 1866 cultura ardeleană a fost centrul românismului. Abia ieșiți de sub turci, moldovenii și valahii reînvățau românește de la ardeleni. Ardelenii i-au învățat alfabetul latin.

Și o ultima observație: nu am știut că prima tipăritură în maghiară a apărut după dezastrul de la Mohacs, în care prinicipele ardelean Iona Zapolya privea de după culmea dealului cum regele maghiar era măcelerit de turci, fără să-i sară în ajutor. Spune și aceasta ceva.



QUOTE(rakoczy @ Oct 21 2005, 06:03) *
@ They have consistently and systematically been subjest to forced assimilation and persecution. Romania is probably the most xenophobic country in Europe today. Romanians in cities like Marosvásárhely (targu mures) and Kolozsvár (cluj) are practising ethnic cleansing an a scale only seen in former Yugoslavia. Hungarians are subject to constant discrimination, Hungarian signs are painted over or not allowed at all, intimidation by Gheorghe Funar is carried out against Hungarians on a daily basis aimed at driving out all Hungarians from this ancient Magyar land.

sper ca nu supara adevarul...
Diogene
Este desigur ceva adevar, cum si mesajul in discutie exprimă realitatea a ceea ce să mai găsește în scăfârlia cuiva.
Sper să nu fie mulți care gândesc ca el. Nu de alta, dar nu mi-ar plecea să vă prea mulți unguri de-ăștia uciși sau alungați de ceva organizații teroriste.
Cine va mai purta visul Marii Ungarii dacă ei vor fi eliminați?

Dacă mai jumătate din teritoriul României a fost parte din Ungaria Mare, eu cred că ar trebui să ne asumăm istoria Ungariei 896-1526, cu toți regii, eșecurile, neputința ei, ca și istoria Transilvaniei 1541-1699. Există deja istorici români care se ocupă conștiincios de Imperiul Habsburgic și de Austro-Ungaria și încearcă să explice de ce a fost un proiect neviabil - un ghinion uriaș pentru Europa Centrală.

Și principala explicație este, cel puțin după cum văd acum lucrurile, ar fi în caracterul limitat, provincial al culturii maghiare, dovedit și de aerul de superioritate din mesajul de mai sus, în impotența de nobilime scăpătată a claselor diriguitoare maghiare. Austriecii i-au "oprimat foarte tare", dar nu au ieșit din Imperiu ca să nu o capete de la români și poate de la alții (croați, slovaci) care susțineau Imperiul. Probabil că dacă ar fi făcut așa ceva, Ungaria era și mai mică azi.

La ce folosește "triannonita" asta de isterică?

Un expozeul domnului sunt multe lucruri reale, precum povestea cu toleranța religioasă, de care ca ardelean, român din cele mai vechi timpuri ("1874" este inscripția de pe o ladă a străbunicii), sunt chiar mândru. Transilvania acelor timpuri era o mică putere regională, respectată de toți.

Dacă tot vorbea de cultura română putea să spună că după 1700 până la 1866 cultura ardeleană a fost centrul românismului. Abia ieșiți de sub turci, moldovenii și valahii reînvățau românește de la ardeleni. Ardelenii i-au învățat alfabetul latin.

Și o ultima observație: nu am știut că prima tipăritură în maghiară a apărut după dezastrul de la Mohacs, în care prinicipele ardelean Iona Zapolya privea de după culmea dealului cum regele maghiar era măcelerit de turci, fără să-i sară în ajutor. Spune și aceasta ceva.



QUOTE(rakoczy @ Oct 21 2005, 06:03) *
@ They have consistently and systematically been subjest to forced assimilation and persecution. Romania is probably the most xenophobic country in Europe today. Romanians in cities like Marosvásárhely (targu mures) and Kolozsvár (cluj) are practising ethnic cleansing an a scale only seen in former Yugoslavia. Hungarians are subject to constant discrimination, Hungarian signs are painted over or not allowed at all, intimidation by Gheorghe Funar is carried out against Hungarians on a daily basis aimed at driving out all Hungarians from this ancient Magyar land.

sper ca nu supara adevarul...
rakoczy
Diogene:Și o ultima observație: nu am știut că prima tipăritură în maghiară a apărut după dezastrul de la Mohacs, în care prinicipele ardelean Iona Zapolya privea de după culmea dealului cum regele maghiar era măcelerit de turci, fără să-i sară în ajutor. Spune și aceasta ceva.

naughty.gif
he-he!
stim noi de ce! coolspeak.gif
TAPAS
QUOTE(rakoczy @ Oct 21 2005, 05:03) *
[ b] Romanians in cities like Marosvásárhely (targu mures) and Kolozsvár (cluj) are practising ethnic cleansing an a scale only seen in former Yugoslavia. [/b]

sper ca nu supara adevarul...



daca tu vezi adevar aici - daca ar fi adevarat ce scrie aici ai fi avut demult un gloante in cap.

adevarul nu supara dragi mei Rakoczys, sau cel putin nu pe mine
zeugeniu
Bai, Secheli, ce-i cu minciunile astea sfruntate? Au venit ungurii sa faca propaganda lol....
sosok
QUOTE(rakoczy @ Oct 21 2005, 11:46) *
Diogene:Și o ultima observație: nu am știut că prima tipăritură în maghiară a apărut după dezastrul de la Mohacs, în care prinicipele ardelean Iona Zapolya privea de după culmea dealului cum regele maghiar era măcelerit de turci, fără să-i sară în ajutor. Spune și aceasta ceva.

naughty.gif
he-he!
stim noi de ce! coolspeak.gif



care e treaba, pana la urma?! confusedsmiley.png
Diogene
Adică Ungaria Mare exista ca și acum, mai mult pe hartă, decât în realitate. Avea coroana Sfântului Ștefan, dar nu știau ce să facă cu ea. Dacă bine știu criza a început pe la 1300, o dată cu moartea ultimul arpadian.

Am remușcări, cultura maghiară nu este neapărat provincială, închisă în sine. Are totuși un sentiment de "singur printre poeți" (vorba lui Marin Sorescu), de excepționalitate. Pănă la urmă este tot o absență a comunicării, de unde rezultă o acută pierdere a "simțului realității"

Ce-ar fi fost dacă i s-ar spus lui Avram Iancu ce "român frumos ești! Ungaria nu este de nimic mai mândră decât de românii săi. Adu-i pe toți până la Marea Neagră, aici în mândra noastră țară!". Tot timpul deasupra interesului de stat era "seminția maghiară", să nu piară "tribul maghiarilor" care este atât de excepțional, atât de "singur printre poeți". Asta au vrut. Asta au obținut.

QUOTE(sosok @ Oct 21 2005, 12:10) *
care e treaba, pana la urma?! confusedsmiley.png
rakoczy
te inseli, partial. smile.gif
de fapt, cerd ca omul facea referiri la altceva. sleep.gif

oricum, am tare multa treaba acum.... vorbim deseara. peacefingers.gif
Diogene
Ce gandeste Sorok e treaba lui.

Eu zic ca in momentul cand turcii n-au bagat in acelasi pasalac pe unguri si ardeleni dupa 1526, drumul diferit al Transilvaniei devine si mai evident.



QUOTE(rakoczy @ Oct 21 2005, 12:42) *
te inseli, partial. smile.gif
de fapt, cerd ca omul facea referiri la altceva. sleep.gif

oricum, am tare multa treaba acum.... vorbim deseara. peacefingers.gif
Beria_nkvd
QUOTE(Diogene @ Oct 21 2005, 13:14) *
Ce gandeste Sorok e treaba lui.

Eu zic ca in momentul cand turcii n-au bagat in acelasi pasalac pe unguri si ardeleni dupa 1526, drumul diferit al Transilvaniei devine si mai evident.

1541 atunci devine Ungaria pasalic otoman smile.gif
rakoczy
http://www.tatar.ro/articole/art2.php

http://www.sud-est.md/numere/20020709/article_15/

informatii utile si mai putin cunoscute despre neamurle cumane, uighure, turco-tatare care au contribuit la etnogeneza romanilor in veacurile 9-10-14 e.n., in anumite regiuni dintre Carpati si Nistru, precum si in Dobrogea, mai tarziu.

Diogene, cum interpretezi? smile.gif
Diogene
1. Dobrogea a fost neromânească în 1878 când a intrat în componența Regatului României.

2. Provinciile române au suportat influența turcă în mod diferit. Valahia a fost cea mai turcizată (exceptând Dobrogea și Sudul Basarabiei). Se vede și acum după gradul de răspândire a caricaturii de foclor turcesc numite "manele" ("mania" în turcă) Ca în orce gen mai există și melodii reușite, dar principala cauză a a faptului că sunt muzică slabă pare să fie depărtarea de adevărata sursă a folcorului respectiv.

3. Logica îmi spune că influențele târzii, precum cea turcească, sunt mai superficiale, reversibile. S-ar putea să mă înșel.

QUOTE(rakoczy @ Oct 22 2005, 13:32) *
http://www.tatar.ro/articole/art2.php

http://www.sud-est.md/numere/20020709/article_15/

informatii utile si mai putin cunoscute despre neamurle cumane, uighure, turco-tatare care au contribuit la etnogeneza romanilor in veacurile 9-10-14 e.n., in anumite regiuni dintre Carpati si Nistru, precum si in Dobrogea, mai tarziu.

Diogene, cum interpretezi? smile.gif
rakoczy
de fapt, voiam sa integrez aceste informatii in discutia larga despre etnogenesa romanilor.
mai ales, problema Cumanilor si a altor triburi vechi turanice ( chiar incepand cu hunnii, de ce nu?). nu ma refer la stapaniri vremelnice, ci la aportul de populatie, chiar numeric redusa, ce s-au sedentarizat pe aici. in acest sens, Cumania , cred ca a exercitat o influenta oarecare intre Carpati si Nistru.
apoi Hoarda de Aur cu centrul in Crimeea, adica foarte aproape.
dupa mine, odata cu slavii sedentarizati aici intre 600-800 e.n, se pote considera ca etnogenesa e incheiata in jurul anului 1000 e.n.
totusi.....
tinand cont de migratiile succesive, de jafuri, pradaciuni, luari in robie... si stiind ca elementul daco-romanic+slav erea slab numeric in viitoarea Moldova, mai ales ( ca fiind cea mai expusa invaziilor) este inexplicabila aparitia poporului roman-moldovean asa de extins in epoca ( pana dincolo de Nistru ).
pentru ca migratiile pustiau si Impingeau catre Vest! iar romanii apar succesiv tot mai mult, catre Est!
rog pareri....
Diogene
Cred că totuși și cumanii și pecenegii și-au întemeiat state în Sudul Moldovei și Nord-Estul Moldovei. Îi atrăgea poarta dintre Carpați și Dunăre, chiar Carpații scunzi care facilitează accesul în Ardeal. Zona este denumită "Cumania" pe anumite hărți. Deci practic românii nu putea după anul 900 să existe acolo într-un număr prea mare. Am mai zis, eu cred că ei erau atunci, în 950-1000 în zona Carpaților Păduroși. Un intelectual maghiar zice ceva că acolo au fost români din timpurile străvechi. Școala poloneză de istorie (cea mai credibilă) spune că "rușinii/rutenii" de acolo au o origine "mixture of Polish, Romanian and Ruthenian". Ei vorbesc că românii au ajuns acolo de-abia după 1200. (http://www.lemko.org/magura/scholar/adamX.html). Ații vorbesc de "după 1500". Poate că au fost acolo și pe la 1000.

Cumanii au avut un stat serios în Valahia, însă apoi s-au împrăștiat, mulți au ajuns în Estul Ungariei de azi. Privind originea românilor sub aspectul unor caracteristici a lor nu găsesc ce ar fi "cuman". Probabil că mulți fost românizați o dată cu întemeierea Valahiei după 1300. Să o spun și pe asta: pentru mine Valahia este o țară colonizată, românizată în care românii, veniți din Sudul Ardealului s-au impus ca și clasă stăpânitoare, mai ales politic și militar. În Ardeal și Molodova sunt români veniți, în Vlahia sunt mai mulți românizați.






QUOTE(rakoczy @ Oct 22 2005, 15:10) *
de fapt, voiam sa integrez aceste informatii in discutia larga despre etnogenesa romanilor.
mai ales, problema Cumanilor si a altor triburi vechi turanice ( chiar incepand cu hunnii, de ce nu?). nu ma refer la stapaniri vremelnice, ci la aportul de populatie, chiar numeric redusa, ce s-au sedentarizat pe aici. in acest sens, Cumania , cred ca a exercitat o influenta oarecare intre Carpati si Nistru.
apoi Hoarda de Aur cu centrul in Crimeea, adica foarte aproape.
dupa mine, odata cu slavii sedentarizati aici intre 600-800 e.n, se pote considera ca etnogenesa e incheiata in jurul anului 1000 e.n.
totusi.....
tinand cont de migratiile succesive, de jafuri, pradaciuni, luari in robie... si stiind ca elementul daco-romanic+slav erea slab numeric in viitoarea Moldova, mai ales ( ca fiind cea mai expusa invaziilor) este inexplicabila aparitia poporului roman-moldovean asa de extins in epoca ( pana dincolo de Nistru ).
pentru ca migratiile pustiau si Impingeau catre Vest! iar romanii apar succesiv tot mai mult, catre Est!
rog pareri....
zeugeniu
QUOTE
Dobrogea a fost neromânească în 1878 când a intrat în componența Regatului României.


Mai incearca odata. Romanii formau majoritatea relativa in Dobrogea 1878.
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221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252, 253, 254, 255, 256, 257, 258, 259, 260, 261, 262, 263, 264, 265, 266, 267, 268, 269, 270, 271, 272, 273, 274, 275, 276, 277, 278, 279, 280, 281, 282, 283, 284, 285, 286, 287, 288, 289, 290, 291, 292, 293, 294, 295, 296, 297, 298, 299, 300, 301, 302, 303, 304, 305, 306, 307, 308, 309, 310, 311, 312, 313, 314, 315, 316, 317, 318, 319, 320, 321, 322, 323, 324, 325, 326, 327, 328, 329, 330, 331, 332, 333, 334, 335, 336, 337, 338, 339, 340, 341, 342, 343, 344, 345, 346, 347, 348, 349, 350, 351, 352, 353, 354, 355, 356, 357, 358, 359, 360, 361, 362, 363, 364, 365, 366, 367, 368, 369, 370, 371, 372, 373, 374, 375, 376, 377, 378, 379, 380, 381, 382, 383, 384, 385, 386, 387, 388, 389, 390, 391, 392, 393, 394, 395, 396, 397, 398, 399, 400, 401, 402, 403, 404, 405, 406, 407, 408, 409, 410, 411, 412, 413, 414, 415, 416, 417, 418, 419, 420, 421, 422, 423, 424, 425, 426, 427, 428, 429, 430, 431, 432, 433, 434, 435, 436, 437, 438, 439, 440, 441, 442, 443, 444, 445, 446, 447, 448, 449, 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 459, 460, 461, 462, 463, 464, 465, 466, 467, 468, 469, 470, 471, 472, 473, 474, 475, 476, 477, 478, 479, 480, 481, 482, 483, 484, 485, 486, 487, 488, 489, 490, 491, 492, 493, 494, 495, 496, 497, 498, 499, 500, 501, 502, 503, 504, 505, 506, 507, 508, 509, 510, 511, 512, 513, 514, 515, 516, 517, 518, 519, 520, 521, 522, 523, 524, 525, 526, 527, 528, 529, 530, 531, 532, 533, 534, 535, 536, 537, 538, 539, 540, 541, 542, 543, 544, 545, 546, 547, 548, 549, 550, 551, 552, 553, 554, 555, 556, 557, 558, 559, 560, 561, 562, 563, 564, 565, 566, 567, 568, 569, 570, 571, 572, 573, 574, 575, 576, 577, 578, 579, 580, 581, 582, 583, 584, 585, 586, 587, 588, 589, 590, 591, 592, 593, 594, 595, 596, 597, 598, 599, 600, 601, 602, 603, 604, 605, 606, 607, 608, 609, 610, 611, 612, 613, 614, 615, 616, 617, 618, 619, 620, 621, 622, 623, 624, 625, 626, 627, 628, 629, 630, 631, 632, 633, 634, 635, 636, 637, 638, 639, 640, 641, 642, 643, 644, 645, 646, 647, 648, 649, 650, 651, 652, 653, 654, 655, 656, 657, 658, 659, 660, 661, 662, 663, 664, 665, 666, 667, 668, 669, 670, 671, 672, 673, 674, 675, 676, 677, 678, 679, 680, 681, 682, 683, 684, 685, 686, 687, 688, 689, 690, 691, 692, 693, 694, 695, 696, 697, 698, 699, 700, 701, 702, 703, 704, 705, 706, 707, 708, 709, 710, 711, 712, 713, 714, 715, 716, 717, 718, 719, 720, 721, 722, 723, 724, 725, 726, 727, 728, 729, 730, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 736, 737, 738, 739, 740, 741, 742, 743, 744, 745, 746, 747, 748, 749, 750, 751, 752, 753, 754, 755, 756, 757, 758, 759, 760, 761, 762, 763, 764, 765, 766, 767, 768, 769, 770, 771, 772, 773, 774, 775, 776, 777, 778, 779, 780, 781, 782, 783, 784, 785, 786, 787, 788, 789, 790, 791, 792, 793, 794, 795, 796, 797, 798, 799, 800, 801, 802, 803, 804, 805, 806, 807, 808, 809, 810, 811, 812, 813, 814, 815, 816, 817, 818, 819, 820, 821, 822, 823, 824, 825, 826, 827, 828, 829, 830, 831, 832, 833, 834, 835, 836, 837, 838, 839, 840, 841, 842, 843, 844, 845, 846, 847, 848, 849, 850, 851, 852, 853, 854, 855, 856, 857, 858, 859, 860, 861, 862, 863, 864, 865, 866, 867, 868, 869, 870, 871, 872, 873, 874, 875, 876, 877, 878, 879, 880, 881, 882, 883, 884, 885, 886, 887, 888, 889, 890, 891, 892, 893, 894, 895, 896, 897, 898, 899, 900, 901, 902, 903, 904, 905, 906, 907, 908, 909, 910, 911, 912, 913, 914, 915, 916, 917, 918, 919, 920, 921, 922, 923, 924, 925, 926, 927, 928, 929, 930, 931, 932, 933, 934, 935, 936, 937, 938, 939, 940, 941, 942, 943, 944, 945, 946, 947, 948, 949, 950, 951, 952, 953, 954, 955, 956, 957, 958, 959, 960, 961, 962, 963, 964, 965, 966, 967, 968, 969, 970, 971, 972, 973, 974, 975, 976, 977, 978, 979, 980, 981, 982, 983, 984, 985, 986, 987, 988, 989, 990, 991, 992, 993, 994, 995, 996, 997, 998, 999, 1000, 1001, 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006, 1007, 1008, 1009, 1010, 1011, 1012, 1013, 1014, 1015, 1016, 1017, 1018, 1019, 1020, 1021, 1022, 1023, 1024, 1025, 1026, 1027, 1028, 1029, 1030, 1031, 1032, 1033, 1034, 1035, 1036, 1037, 1038, 1039, 1040, 1041, 1042, 1043, 1044, 1045, 1046, 1047, 1048, 1049, 1050, 1051, 1052, 1053, 1054, 1055, 1056, 1057, 1058, 1059, 1060, 1061, 1062, 1063, 1064, 1065, 1066, 1067, 1068, 1069, 1070, 1071, 1072, 1073, 1074, 1075, 1076, 1077, 1078, 1079, 1080, 1081, 1082, 1083, 1084, 1085, 1086, 1087, 1088, 1089, 1090, 1091, 1092, 1093, 1094, 1095, 1096, 1097, 1098, 1099, 1100, 1101, 1102, 1103, 1104, 1105, 1106, 1107, 1108, 1109, 1110, 1111, 1112, 1113, 1114, 1115, 1116, 1117, 1118, 1119, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1124, 1125, 1126, 1127, 1128, 1129, 1130, 1131, 1132, 1133, 1134, 1135, 1136, 1137, 1138, 1139, 1140, 1141, 1142, 1143, 1144, 1145, 1146, 1147, 1148, 1149, 1150, 1151, 1152, 1153, 1154, 1155, 1156, 1157, 1158, 1159, 1160, 1161, 1162, 1163, 1164, 1165, 1166, 1167, 1168, 1169, 1170, 1171, 1172, 1173, 1174, 1175, 1176, 1177, 1178, 1179, 1180, 1181, 1182, 1183, 1184, 1185, 1186, 1187, 1188, 1189, 1190, 1191, 1192, 1193, 1194, 1195, 1196, 1197, 1198, 1199, 1200, 1201, 1202, 1203, 1204, 1205, 1206, 1207, 1208, 1209, 1210, 1211, 1212, 1213, 1214, 1215, 1216, 1217, 1218, 1219, 1220, 1221, 1222, 1223, 1224, 1225, 1226, 1227, 1228, 1229, 1230, 1231, 1232, 1233, 1234, 1235, 1236, 1237, 1238, 1239, 1240, 1241, 1242, 1243, 1244, 1245, 1246, 1247, 1248, 1249, 1250, 1251, 1252, 1253, 1254, 1255, 1256, 1257, 1258, 1259, 1260, 1261, 1262, 1263, 1264, 1265, 1266, 1267, 1268, 1269, 1270, 1271, 1272, 1273, 1274, 1275, 1276, 1277, 1278, 1279, 1280, 1281, 1282, 1283, 1284, 1285, 1286, 1287, 1288, 1289, 1290, 1291, 1292, 1293, 1294
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