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Incercati sa ne respectati pe noi romanii, suntem gazde si va consideram egalii nostrii!
Nimeni nu va interzice sa va vorbiti limba, aveti scoli, aveti tot ce va trebuie pt a nu va uita radacinile!
Desi nici un roman nu ar trebui sa uite trecutul!
Noi nu am avut nici un drept, in propria noastra tara, timp de cateva sute de ani cat ati condus Ardealul!
alt delir politico-istoric 
se adauga in plus formele fara fond din nick name.
se adauga in plus formele fara fond din nick name.
QUOTE(Marius1989 @ May 11 2006, 20:00) 
La Curtea de Argeș sînt moaștele sfintei mucenițe Filofteia, care a trăit în orașul Tîrnovo din Bulgaria actuală. Se zice că dacă te rogi la sfîntă, ți se îndeplinește dorința.
Povestea muceniței Filofteia și cum a ajuns ea să fie adusă la Curtea de Argeș este explicată de preotul de acolo: după ce a murit oasele ei au devenit foarte grele și nu mai puteau fi ridicate. Oamenii au întrebat sfînta unde vrea să fie îngropată, pomenind diferite nume de mînăstiri din țară. Numai cînd au pomenit de mînăstirea Curtea de Argeș oasele sfintei s-au făcut ușoare, semnalînd că aici vrea să fie îngropată.
Preotul de la Curtea de Argeș dă turiștilor și explicația istorică necesară: pe vremea aceea, orașul Tîrnovo din Bulgaria aparținea de Țara Românească.
Vezi Diogene, voi greco-catolicii mereu interpetați greșit istoria. Harta aia pe care ai văzut-o nu era Bulgaria Mare, ci România Mare, care pe vremea aia includea Bulgaria.
Povestea muceniței Filofteia și cum a ajuns ea să fie adusă la Curtea de Argeș este explicată de preotul de acolo: după ce a murit oasele ei au devenit foarte grele și nu mai puteau fi ridicate. Oamenii au întrebat sfînta unde vrea să fie îngropată, pomenind diferite nume de mînăstiri din țară. Numai cînd au pomenit de mînăstirea Curtea de Argeș oasele sfintei s-au făcut ușoare, semnalînd că aici vrea să fie îngropată.
Preotul de la Curtea de Argeș dă turiștilor și explicația istorică necesară: pe vremea aceea, orașul Tîrnovo din Bulgaria aparținea de Țara Românească.
Vezi Diogene, voi greco-catolicii mereu interpetați greșit istoria. Harta aia pe care ai văzut-o nu era Bulgaria Mare, ci România Mare, care pe vremea aia includea Bulgaria.
Poti sa spui cand murii Mucenita Filofteia. Poate stii si de Sfantul Dumitru al Bucurestiului care isi doarme somnul de veci in Bulgaria. Dupa opinia mea de moment, Bulgaria din anul 804 era romaneasca la baza, condusa de o patura de prabulgari si aghiotantii lor slavi. Din nefericire nu stiu pe cineva care sa fi incercat sa argumenteze aceasta teza.
P.S.
Sunt greco-catolic doar de forma, din respect pentru parinti. NU am primit nici o educatie in acest sens. Am remarcat insa la toti preotii greco-catolici pe care i-am cunoscut un mare respect fata de Constantinopol. De aia sunt de rit oriental...
QUOTE(Diogene @ May 14 2006, 17:30)
Poti sa spui cand murii Mucenita Filofteia. Poate stii si de Sfantul Dumitru al Bucurestiului care isi doarme somnul de veci in Bulgaria. Dupa opinia mea de moment, Bulgaria din anul 804 era romaneasca la baza, condusa de o patura de prabulgari si aghiotantii lor slavi. Din nefericire nu stiu pe cineva care sa fi incercat sa argumenteze aceasta teza.
P.S.
Sunt greco-catolic doar de forma, din respect pentru parinti. NU am primit nici o educatie in acest sens. Am remarcat insa la toti preotii greco-catolici pe care i-am cunoscut un mare respect fata de Constantinopol. De aia sunt de rit oriental...
P.S.
Sunt greco-catolic doar de forma, din respect pentru parinti. NU am primit nici o educatie in acest sens. Am remarcat insa la toti preotii greco-catolici pe care i-am cunoscut un mare respect fata de Constantinopol. De aia sunt de rit oriental...
Hm, trecand repejor peste parerile colegilor de mai sus, cred ca situatia acelor vremuri era mai confuza decat banuim noi acum. Am incercat in ultimele luni sa adun cat mai multa informatie. Ce concluzie am reusit sa trag: in acei ani Bulgariei ii moare spiritul turc, elementul slav iesind biruitor. Numele tarilor (pluralul de la tar – scriu fara diacritice din comoditate) incep sa fie slave. Gasim atunci, in acele locuri un amalgam de populatii. Dar partea de nord-est (primul tinut populat cu slavi) si cred eu si intre Dunare si munti, slavii erau deja destul de compacti. Romanitatea e impinsa deja in zonelemai muntoase, in sud si de ce nu si la nord de Dunare.
Am intalnit recent o idee care imi era straina pana acum: mare parte din Grecia (Peloponesul cel putin) e populata de slavi. Exista chiar un puternic curent de opinie in acest sens. Normal ca istoricii greci il contesta inversunat. Grecia se regrecizeaza ulterior prin colonizare.
Din lipsa de timp nu mai dezvolt acum ideea. Cand timpul imi va permite revin si cu alte „noutati”.
Hai sa ascultam si parea unui anume Liviu Anzulato din Suedia:
"Din cite stiu eu , fara sa am certitudine in acest sens, in arhivele Bizantului timpuriu care dupa cum se stie folosea latina ca limba oficiala si nu greaca care s-a impus de abia dupa secolele VI - VIII, denumirea imperiului din rasarit nu era alta decit ROMANIA care in acelasi timp arata descendenta de la Roma marcind insa si diferenta dintre cele doua, anume ca Imperiul Rasaritean adoptase crestinismul . Dar cum a migrat oare numele acesta de la sud de Dunare la nord pentru a ramine aici definitiv? Exista si pentru aceasta intrebare un raspuns ce nu poate fi documentat in detaliu dar care este si simplu si logic .
Este iarasi cunoscut ca triburile slave si-au facut aparitia pe teritoriul Daciei cam pe la secolul V si au ramas aici 100-200 de ani .
Dar prin gratie divina dumnealor impreuna cu avarii le-a intrat in cap ideea cuceririi Constantinopolului pe care l-au atacat masiv trecind la sud de Dunare, si prin urmare parasind Dacia, fapt atestat si de formarea ulterioara a statelor slave acolo unde le stim si astazi. Timp de cel putin doua secole a durat confruntarea militara cu Imperiul ROMANIEI urmarea fiind pierderea de teritorii de partea latinilor si convertirea la crestinism de partea slavilor (si atunci intreb si eu, de fapt si pina la urma cine a cistigat ...?)
In aceasta situatie locuitorii ROMANIEI de la sud de Dunare care va reamintesc erau toti vorbitori de latina fiind cetateni ai noii Rome (indiferent de etnicitatea lor de origine) , au fost confruntati dupa navalirea slava cu doua alternative . Ori sa ramina pe loc si datorita inaintarii treptate (si nicidecum pasnice) a slavilor inspre sud sa fie dominati si apoi asimilati de acestia, fapt care s-a si petrecut de altfel mai putin in cele citeva enclave de latinitate anume aromanii a caror raspindire actuala arata care era teritoriul din sudul Dunarii unde se vorbea latina inainte de secolul VII, ori sa plece din calea navalitorilor. Dar unde se puteau ei refugia in relativa apropiere daca nu chiar acolo de unde slavii plecasera adica la nord de Dunare, in Dacia deci, unde exista probabil si un nucleu latin, respectiv urmasii colonistilor de dupa 106, atitia citi or fi fost 100000 - 200000. Si atunci timp de cel putin unul sau doua secole dupa navalirea slava in sudul Dunarii s-a petrecut un contrafenomen, neconsemnat in istorie pentra ca pe nimeni nu prea intereseaza soarta celor multi si napastuiti, respectiv o continua si tacuta refugiere a vobitorilor de latina in singurul loc unde se puteau refugia si pe care slavii il parasisera in incercarea lor de a cuceri Constantinopolul. Odata cu locuitorii si denumirea ROMANIA s-a deplasat peste fluviu, iar logic era ca pe masura ce unii dintre ei isi gaseau refugiul in Dacia din ce in ce mai multi sa fie tentati sa-i urmeze . Fara sa mai aiba caracterul masiv de acum 1400 de ani, deplasarea aromanilor catre noua ROMANIA de la nordul Dunarii a fost continua pina aproape de zilele noastre. De altfel la sfirsitul perioadei tulburi a sec. VII - X se poate atesta si documentar ca vorbitorii de latina erau acum majoritari intre Dunare si Carpati, nefiind nevoie de nici o confruntare cu cei nou veniti care de data aceasta nu mai erau cuceritori ci refugiati si deci crestineste primiti. A urmat formarea statelor romanesti, dovada ca principalele etnii constitutive ale neamului, pelasgo - dacii pe de o parte si vorbitorii de latina (iar "vlah , valah" chiar asta si inseamna) de cealalta constituisera o entitate suficient de omogena si inchegata pentru a fi si viabila in arena istoriei .
Baza etnica a sintezei trebuie sa o fi reprezentat dacii, cel putin in prima faza, iar substratul dacic se intuieste din cele citeva mii de cuvinte evident neavind legatura cu latina sau slavona si care persista inca in limba noastra de citeva mii bune de ani fara sa li se dea de capat fiind de cele mai multe ori trecute in dictionarul Academiei ca avind "origine necunoscuta", ceea ce nu lamureste mare lucru, dar foarte bine pot fi autohtone si ancestrale .
Asa cum vad eu ca s-ar fi petrecut lucrurile n-as pune in vre-o opozitie lumea dacilor si cea a latinilor din ROMANIA de la sud de Dunare, daca ne referim la perioada 602 spre incoace. Este evident ca versiunea invatata de noi la scoala, ca am fi urmasii in vre-un fel ai legiunilor si colonistilor lui Traian, este o gogomanie de mari proportii si nu ne pune in lumina buna atunci cind o mai debitam si international. Pai ultimul lucru pe care l-ar fi facut dacii dupa 106 ar fi fost sa invete limba cuceritorilor, in special in teritoriile necucerite adica jumatatea de nord a tarii (sau dacii liberi dimineata se mai bateau putin cu legiunile Romei si seara se duceau cuminte la cursul de limba latina, chiar si dupa ce "profesorii" s-au retras in 271 , asa elevi zelosi mai zic si eu ..) Dar intr-un fel trebuie explicata latinitatea din Carpati care este evidenta pentru toata lumea .
Daca perspectiva pe care o propun eu (spre marea bucurie a lumii academice pe care ii va umfla risul, sau ii va podidi plinsul ...) este valabila, de mare importanta este faptul ca la anul 602 ambele maluri ale Dunarii erau crestine in timp ce neprietenul comun, triburile slave de curind sosite in zona cu miini sau ginduri nu din cale afara de curate, nu erau inca. Acest schimb de populatii, slavii trecind inspre sud (unde de altfel au ramas si bine au facut pentru ca altfel recitam acum pe dinafara din Lomonosov si nu din Eminescu ...) , iar cetatenii ROMANIEI retragindu-se la nord de Dunare (cu numele tarii lor cu tot) s-a petrecut gradual pe o durata relativ lunga de timp si fara a avea vre-o spectaculozitate demna de a fi consemnata de istoricii vremii. Pe cine crezi ca interesa ca tanti Eugenia si badea Flavius au trecut fluviul si s-au asezat pe undeva prin cimpia Baraganului? Daca pe zi un singur "simplu cetatean" s-ar fi refugiat la fiecare 17 km. de-a lungul Dunarii, evident neobservabil chiar cu tehnologia moderna, dar pe intreaga durata a razboaielor cu slavii numarul total poate atinge respectabila cifra de 3500000, considerabil mai mult decit intreaga populatie dacica. Era insa posibila convietuirea cu dacii? Eu zic ca era daca ambele maluri ale Dunarii erau crestine iar identitatea lor religioasa era mai puternica decit diferenta etnica, de altfel la rindul lor chiar si cei nou veniti poate ca nu erau toti de acelasi neam sau erau chiar traci avind in comun doar limba latina si apartenenta de crestinism. Iar acum nu mai era vorba de legiuni cuceritor – jefuitoare, ci despre oameni obisnuiti, cei purtatori de divinitate, aflati la nevoie . Daca ai fi pus in situatia de a ajuta pe oricine fara de noroc ai refuza sa o faci? Nu cred, si atunci de ce sa nu le acordam si dacilor premiza de inalta civilizatie umana pe care l-ar reprezenta aceast comportament? De aceea nu vreau sa pun in opozitie aceste doua lumi, ai caror urmasi in egala masura sintem. Dupa intuitia mea cei veniti din sudul Dunarii nu s-au asezat prea departe ci intre Carpati si fluviu acolo unde urma sa apara "tara vorbitorilor de latina", anume Valahia urmasa de fapt a ROMANIEI lui Constantin cel Mare si a lui Justinian cel Dintai .
Daca asa s-a intimplat, dialectele nordice ale limbii romane (Moldova si Maramuresul spre exemplu) ar trebui sa fi pastrat mai multe cuvinte dacice decit cele din sud care au fost mai mult influentate de venirea latinilor sud-dunareni, si mie chiar asa imi pare a fi. Ele sint destul de simplu de identificat, de multe ori fac parte din universul rural care nu-si schimba vorbele cu una, cu doua, nu sint latine, nici slavone, nici neologisme, nici frantuzisme, ci acele misterioase cuvinte cu origine mai mult sau mai putin "necunoscuta" (cum este oare cu putinta sa nu-ti recunosti propriile cuvinte?) paradoxal daca te gindesti ca ele sint acelea care au fost vorbite la noi dintotdeauna si ne-au insotit in devenirea noastra. Cautati-le printre cele cu pronuntare apasata , cu "z" de la zambra si zimbru, cu "s" ca la sura si sopot , cu "j" ca la junca si jale , cu "g" ca la get si ger, cu "t" ca la Tara."
http://www.iatp.md/dava/Dava9/amzulat_9/amzulat_9.html
QUOTE(Diogene @ May 14 2006, 18:30)
Poti sa spui cand murii Mucenita Filofteia. Poate stii si de Sfantul Dumitru al Bucurestiului care isi doarme somnul de veci in Bulgaria. Dupa opinia mea de moment, Bulgaria din anul 804 era romaneasca la baza, condusa de o patura de prabulgari si aghiotantii lor slavi. Din nefericire nu stiu pe cineva care sa fi incercat sa argumenteze aceasta teza.
P.S.
Sunt greco-catolic doar de forma, din respect pentru parinti. NU am primit nici o educatie in acest sens. Am remarcat insa la toti preotii greco-catolici pe care i-am cunoscut un mare respect fata de Constantinopol. De aia sunt de rit oriental...
P.S.
Sunt greco-catolic doar de forma, din respect pentru parinti. NU am primit nici o educatie in acest sens. Am remarcat insa la toti preotii greco-catolici pe care i-am cunoscut un mare respect fata de Constantinopol. De aia sunt de rit oriental...
Uite aici date despre mucenica Filofteia - http://www.biserica-mihai-viteazul.ro/ro/i...cre/b4-apev.htm
Născută în 1206, moartă la 12 ani, deci în 1218.
Eu cred că în etnogeneza românilor, alături de daci și romani au intrat și slavii. Avem 20% din cuvintele principale ale limbii române moștenite de la salvi, cred că cel puțin 20% din ADN-ul nostru e și el slav.
Deasemeni, în etnogeneza bulgarilor au intrat și românii. La Sud de Dunăre românii au fost slavizați, la Nord de Dunăre slavii au fost românizați.
O teorie citită de mine: slavii au cucerit teritoriile românești, clasa boierească era de origine slavă. De aia cuvinte precum "cneaz", "voievod", "boier" sînt de origine slavă.
Poporul de rînd ("prostimea") a rămas de limbă latină - mai demult cuvîntul "rumân" însemna țăran iobag. Cu timpul, boierii au fost românizați.
Știința modernă dă posibilitatea testelor ADN. S-ar putea să se descopere că românii sînt mai apropiați genetic de bulgari decît de spanioli sau franceji.
QUOTE
O teorie citită de mine: slavii au cucerit teritoriile românești, clasa boierească era de origine slavă. De aia cuvinte precum "cneaz", "voievod", "boier" sînt de origine slavă.
Poporul de rînd ("prostimea") a rămas de limbă latină - mai demult cuvîntul "rumân" însemna țăran iobag. Cu timpul, boierii au fost românizați.
Poporul de rînd ("prostimea") a rămas de limbă latină - mai demult cuvîntul "rumân" însemna țăran iobag. Cu timpul, boierii au fost românizați.
Si in Ungaria boierii erau numiti grofi care provine din germanul 'graf' care la randul lui... Asta inseamna ca boierimea ungureasca era de origine germana? Lingvistii spun ca rusescul boyar e un cuvant provenit de la turci: From boiaren, from Russian boyarin, from Old Russian boljarin, from Turkic baylar, pl. of bay, rich; akin to Turkish bay, rich, gentleman. Din nou asta inseamna ca rusii au avut clasa boiereasca de origine turca?
Lucrurile astea nu sunt asa de simple.
Rumân insemna iobag numai intr-o zona restransa daca nu ma insel numai in zona Banat si in Oltenia, niciodata in Moldova nu a existat asa ceva si nici in restul teritoriilor romanesti. In Moldova iobagii erau numiti 'vecini'.
De fapt romanii au fost cei care i-au condus pe slavi, ganditi-va numai la faptul ca slavii nu au creat state pe teritoriul Romaniei, si de la Dux Gelou 'quidam Blacus', pana la Seneslau 'voievodul romanilor' samd, este clar ca romanii au fost clasa conducatoare si ei au intemeiat organizatiile politice in Muntenia, Moldova, Maramures si prin alte parti.
Dlugosz da cateva detalii despre asta cum ca romanii din Moldova au fost alungati din Italia si i-au asuprit si alungat pe rutenii din zona si dupa asta au luat religia si institutiile lor ca sa-i asupreasca mai bine. Ma rog, multe baliverne dar probabil ca stia el ceva.
Late edit: Basarabii nu erau cumani, ia vezi ce zicea regele Ungariei despre Basarab inainte de Posada, ceva de genul: 'am sa-l scot pe valah din barlogul lui de barba'. Nici macar numele nu poate fi numit cu vertitudine cuman, dar chiar daca ar fi, eu am un nume de origine evreiasca, asta nu ma face in nici un caz evreu.
QUOTE(Marius1989 @ May 15 2006, 14:56)
Știința modernă dă posibilitatea testelor ADN. S-ar putea să se descopere că românii sînt mai apropiați genetic de bulgari decît de spanioli sau franceji.
Multe se pot spune interpretand izvoarele istoriei. Din fericire rezultatele analizelor mitocondriala mtDNA nu lasa loc de intors. Romanii nu sunt inruditi genetic cu vecinii lor geografici, decat intr'un procent relativ redus, si fac parte din haplotipuri diferite. Nu este de neinteles acest lucru, pentru ca vecinii geografici sunt relativi recenti in acest areal. Pe de alta parte exista o continuitate a zestrei DNA a popoarelor din Europa inca din paleolitic, cu exceptia popoarelor migratoare.
Observațiile de mai sus arată că evoluția limbii române într-un spațiu depărtat de nucleul dur latin a dus la deosebiri mai mari (cel puțin la nivel fonologic) între română și celelalte limbi romanice decât deosebirile dintre oricare alte două limbi care aparțin nucleului romanic.
.........
un lingvist occidental din Canada a scris:
Ar fi fost poate mai util sa se analizeze similitudinile fonetice, fonologice si sintactice dintre romana si albaneza.
Nu este un secret pentru nimeni, in faza actuala, ca s-au facut studii in Vest in legatura cu asemanarea uimitoare la nivel fonologic, sintactic, si mai putin lexical, intre romana si albaneza.
Exista un refuz ideologic al unor lingvisti romani de a studia sursele care explica aceasta asemanare uimitoare intre romana si albaneza--care, alaturi de greaca, este cea mai veche limba din Balcani.
Altfel spus, romana este urmasa unei limbi apropiate de albaneza, cu diferenta ca romana a devenit complet romanizata, iar albaneza, nu.
Este timpul sa ne scuturam de prejudecati ideologice, si sa purcedem la aflarea originii reale a romanei.
http://ideiindialog.ro/dialog/index.php?sh...le&articleId=75
.........
un lingvist occidental din Canada a scris:
Ar fi fost poate mai util sa se analizeze similitudinile fonetice, fonologice si sintactice dintre romana si albaneza.
Nu este un secret pentru nimeni, in faza actuala, ca s-au facut studii in Vest in legatura cu asemanarea uimitoare la nivel fonologic, sintactic, si mai putin lexical, intre romana si albaneza.
Exista un refuz ideologic al unor lingvisti romani de a studia sursele care explica aceasta asemanare uimitoare intre romana si albaneza--care, alaturi de greaca, este cea mai veche limba din Balcani.
Altfel spus, romana este urmasa unei limbi apropiate de albaneza, cu diferenta ca romana a devenit complet romanizata, iar albaneza, nu.
Este timpul sa ne scuturam de prejudecati ideologice, si sa purcedem la aflarea originii reale a romanei.
http://ideiindialog.ro/dialog/index.php?sh...le&articleId=75
QUOTE(k33 @ May 15 2006, 21:30)
Multe se pot spune interpretand izvoarele istoriei. Din fericire rezultatele analizelor mitocondriala mtDNA nu lasa loc de intors. Romanii nu sunt inruditi genetic cu vecinii lor geografici, decat intr'un procent relativ redus, si fac parte din haplotipuri diferite. Nu este de neinteles acest lucru, pentru ca vecinii geografici sunt relativi recenti in acest areal. Pe de alta parte exista o continuitate a zestrei DNA a popoarelor din Europa inca din paleolitic, cu exceptia popoarelor migratoare.
Pana la termenii astia genetici pe care nu-i intelegi da un raid prin tara, printre pozele absoventilor de liceu (Fratii Buzesti - Craiova, Unirea - Focsani, Forestier - Cluj-Napoca, George Coșbuc - București, Radu Greceanu - Slatina etc.) sa vezi cum arata ADEVARATA ZESTRE GENETICA a poporului roma^n. Ceea ce te izbeste este diversitatea, desi ai putea gasi anumite trasaturi comune.
QUOTE(Diogene @ May 15 2006, 23:14)
Pana la termenii astia genetici pe care nu-i intelegi da un raid prin tara, printre pozele absoventilor de liceu (Fratii Buzesti - Craiova, Unirea - Focsani, Forestier - Cluj-Napoca, George Coșbuc - București, Radu Greceanu - Slatina etc.) sa vezi cum arata ADEVARATA ZESTRE GENETICA a poporului roma^n. Ceea ce te izbeste este diversitatea, desi ai putea gasi anumite trasaturi comune.
Totusi poate ne explici in termeni medicali ce treaba are diversitatea de haplotipuri in care se incadreaza populatiile de pe teritoriul Romaniei cu faptul ca acestea sunt unice, si nu se regasesc la vecinii nostri geografici ?
PS: No, daca tu faci analiza DNA pe pereții liceului, ai grijă să nu te izbească diversitatea aia prea rău.
QUOTE(Diogene @ May 15 2006, 22:42)
Altfel spus, romana este urmasa unei limbi apropiate de albaneza, cu diferenta ca romana a devenit complet romanizata, iar albaneza, nu.
http://ideiindialog.ro/dialog/index.php?sh...le&articleId=75
http://ideiindialog.ro/dialog/index.php?sh...le&articleId=75
Diogene, de ce autorul nu semneaza comentariul ? Are vreo jenă intelectuală ?
QUOTE(k33 @ May 16 2006, 10:14)
analiza DNA
Daniel Morar asta de la DNA, zici ca urmareste "populatiile de pe teritoriul Romaniei" inca din Paleolitic?
Eh, acum inteleg de ce-o lauda astia din UE pe Monica Macovei
Cronica lui Geoffrey de Villehardouin, una dintre putinele ramase despre Cruciada a IV-a.
Doar cateva fragmente:
And you must know that during this progress all the Greeks, on either side of the straits, came to the Emperor Alexius, to do his will and commandment, and did him fealty and homage as to their lord-all except John, who was King of Wallachia and Bulgaria. This John was a Wallachian, who had rebelled against. his father and uncle, and had warred against them for twenty years, and had won from them so much land that he had become a very wealthy king. -And be it known to you, that of the land lying on the west side of the Straits of St. George, he had conquered very nearly the half. This John did not come to do the will of the emperor, nor to submit himself to him.
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Then was the Emperor Baldwin minded to ride straight to Messinopolis, where the Emperor Alexius was. And the Greeks of Adrianople besought him, as their lord, to leave a garrison in their city because of Johannizza, King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, who ofttimes made war upon them.
..................................................
But do not go and ruin my land. Let us rather, if it so pleases you, march against Johannizz', the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, who holds a great part of the land wrongfully.
..................................................
And they stood in great need of succour, for Johannizza, the King of Wallachia, had mightily oppressed them with war. So Renier helped them right well, and held a great part of the land, and most of those who had sided with Johannizza, now turned to him. In those parts the war with Johannizza raged fiercely.
..................................................
They took envoys therefore privily, from all the cities in the land, and sent them to Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, who was still at war with them as he had been aforetime. And they told Johannizza they would make him emperor, and give themselves wholly to him, and slay all the Franks. So they swore that they would obey him as their lord, and he swore that he would defend them as though they were his own people. Such was the oath sworn.
..................................................
The Greeks, who had made oath to the King of Wallachia that they would kill and betray the Franks, betrayed them in that castle, and slaughtered many and took many captive
..................................................
Here they remained in very great doubt, for they misdoubted the Greeks who were in the city as much as those who were without, because the Greeks in the city had also taken part in the oath sworn to the King of Wallachia, and were bound to betray the Franks
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But they found the country raised against them, and were discomfited; and the Greeks took them, and afterwards handed them over to the King of Wallachia, who had their heads cut off.
..................................................
When the morning came, and full daylight, they rode as had been arranged, and came before Adrianople. And they found it very well defended, and saw the flags of Johannizza, King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, on the walls and towers; and the city was very strong and very rich, and very full of people.
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Johannizza, King of Wallachia, was coming to succour Adrianople with a very great host; for he brought with him Wallachians and Bulgarians, and full fourteen thousand Comans who had never been baptised.
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new chapter= JOHANNIZZA, KING OF WALLACHIA, COMES TO RELIEVE ADRIANOPLE
Then came tidings that Johannizza, King of Wallachia, was coming upon them to relieve the city. So they set their affairs in order, and it was arranged that Geoffry the Marshal, and Manasses of l'Isle should guard the camp, and that the Emperor Baldwin and all the remainder of the host should issue from the camp if so be that johanizza came and offered battle.
And Count Louis, who had been the first to attack, was wounded in two places full sorely; and the Comans and Wallachians began to invade our ranks; and the count had fallen, and one of his knights, whose name was John of Friaise, dismounted, and set him on his horse.
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And the Comans, with the Wallachians and Greeks, who were in full chace, ceased their pursuit. But these still galled our force with their bows and arrows, and the men of our force kept still with their faces turned towards them. Thus did both sides remain till nightfall, when the Comans and Wallachians began to retire.
..................................................
For Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, had come at the point of day before Adrianople with all his host, and found that we had departed, and so ridden after us till it was full day; and when he found us not, he was full of grief; and well was it that he found us not, for if he had found us we must all have been lost beyond recovery.
..................................................
And Johannizza, the King of Wallachia, had followed them all the day with all his powers, and encamped about two leaaues from them
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Johannizza, King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, had with him all his power, and he occupied the whole land; and the country, and the cities, and the castles held for him; and his Comans over-ran the land as far as Constantinople.
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Nor is that to be wondered at, for they had lost so much of the country, that outside Constantinople they only held Rodosto and Selymbria; the whole of the rest of the country being held by Johannizza, King of Wallachia and Bulgaria.
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When Pentecost had come, Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, had pretty well had his will of the land; and he could no longer hold his Comans to-ether, because they were unable to keep the field during the summer; so the Comans departed to their own country.
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At that time it happened that Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, with all his host, marched against the marquis, towards a city called Seres. And the marquis had set a strong garrison of his people in the city, for he had set there Hugh of Colemi, who was a very good knight, and hi,h in rank, and William of Arles, who was his marshal, and great part of his best men. And Johannizza, the King of Wallachia besieged them; nor had he been there long before he took the burgh by force. And at the taking of the burgh a great misfortune befell, for Hugh of Colemi was killed; he was struck through the eye.
In this manner was Seres surrendered, and Johannizza caused the besieged to come forth from the castle and encamp near him in the fields; and he treated them with much fair seeming, and sent them presents. So he kept them for three days, and then he lied and foreswore his promises; for he had them taken, and spoiled of their goods, and led away to Wallachia, naked, and unshod, and on foot. The poor and the mean people, who were of little worth, he sent into Hungary; and as for the others, he caused their heads to be cut off. Of such mortal treachery was the King of Wallachia guilty, as you have heard. Here'did the host suffer grievous loss, one of the most dolorous that ever it suffered. And Johannizza had the castle and city razed, and went on after the marquis.
Now let us leave speaking of Henry, the Regent of the empire, and speak of Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria/[b], who had taken Seres, as you have already heard, and killed by treachery those who had surrendered to him.
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Now [b]Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, though rich and of great possessions, never forgat his own interests, but raised a great force of Comans and Wallachians.
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Thierri of Tenremonde, who was chief and constable, made a foray on the fourth day before the feast of St. Mary Candlemas (30th January 1206); and he rode all night, having six score knights with him, and left Rusium with but a small garrison. When it was dawn, he came to a village where the Comans and Wallachians were encamped, and surprised them in such sort that those who were in the village were unaware of their coming. They killed a good many of the Comans and Wallachians, and captured some forty of their horses; and when they had done this execution, they turned back towards Rusium.
And on that very night the Comans and Wallachians had ridden forth to do us hurt; and there were some seven thousand of them. They came in the morning before Rusium, and were there a lono, space; and the garrison, which was but small, closed the gates, and mounted the walls; and the Comans and Wallachians turned back. They had not gone more than a league and a half from the city, when they met the company of the French under the command of Thierri of Tenremonde. So soon as the French saw them advancing, they formed into their four battalions, with intent to draw into Rusium in slow time; for they knew that if, by God's grace, they could come thither, they would then be in safety.
The Comans, and the Wallachians, and the Greeks of the land rode towards them, for they were in very great force. And they came upon the rear-guard, and began to harass it full sorely. Now the rear-guard was formed of the men of Thierri of Loos, who was seneschal, and had returned to Constantinople, and his brother Villain was now in command.
And the Comans and Wallachians and Greeks pressed them very hard, and wounded many of their horses. Loud were the cries and fierce the onslaught, so that by main force and pure distress they drove the rear-guard back on the battalion of Andrew of Urboise and John of Choisy; and in this manner the Franks retreated, suffering greatly.
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The Comans and Greeks and Wallachians retired, having done according to their will in the land, and won many good horses and good hawberks.
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Now when tidings came to Johannizza, King of Wallachia as to how his people had fared, he was very greatly rejoiced'; for they had killed or taken a very great part of the best men in the French host. So he sent throughout all his lands to collect as many people as he could, and raised a great host of Comans, and Greeks and Wallachians, and entered into Roumania.
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And Johannizza, the King of Wallachia, caused the city to be assaulted, and took it by force.
There was so great a slaughter of people killed, that it was a marvel. And Bègue of Fransures was taken before Johannizza, who had him killed incontinently, together with all, whether Greek or Latin, who were of any account; and all the meaner folk, and women and children, he caused to, be led away captive to Wallachia.
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The Greeks who had remained in the city, surrendered, and he incontinently caused them to be taken, small and great-save those who escaped-and led captive into Wallachia.
Near there was another citv called Panedor, which surrendered to him; and he caused it to be utterly destroyed, and the people to be led captive to Wallachia like the people of Rodosto. Afterwards he rode to the city of Heraclea, that lay by a good seaport, and belonged to the Venetians, who had left in it but a weak garrison; so he assaulted it, and took it by force. There aain was a mighty slaughter, and the remnant that escaped the slaughter he caused to be led captive to Wallachia, while the city itself he destroyed, as lie had destroyed the others.
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Then the Comans and Wallachians scoured the land up to the gates of Constantinople, where Henry the Regent then was, with as many men as he could command.
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ulted it, and took it by force. There the slaughter was so great, that there had been none such in any city where they had been. And you must know that all the castles and all the cities that surrendered to Johannizza under promise of safety were destroyed and rased to the ground, and the people led away captive to Wallachia in such manner as you have heard.
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Johanizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, who had sojourned long in Roumania, and wasted the country during the whole of Lent, and for a good while after Easter (2nd April 1206), now retired towards Adrianople and Demotica, and had it in mind to deal with those cities as he had dealt with the other cities of the land.
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Now when Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, heard that the emperor had been crowned in Constantinople, and that Vemas had remained in the land of Adrianople and Demotica, he collected together as large a force as he could.
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And Johannizza, the King of Wallachia, who was in the land, when he heard that the emperor was coming, drew back into his own land.
Then came the Greeks of the land, and told him that Johanriizza, the King of Wallachia, was carrying off men and women and cattle
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The emperor had reassembled his men, who had gone to place in safe holding the booty taken at Veroi. And he marched day by day from Adrianople till he came to the land of Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria. They came to a city called Ferme, and took it, and entered in, and won much booty. They remained there for three days, and overran all the land, got very much spoil, and destroyed a city called Aquilo.
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Theodore Lascaris, who was warring against the Emperor Henry, took messengers and sent them to Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria.
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Now Johannizza had already engaged a great host of Comans, who were on their way to join his host; and had collected together as large a force of Wallachians and Bulgarians as ever he could.
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Then Johannizza left Wallachia with all his hosts, and with a great host of Comans who joined themselves to him, and entered Roumania.
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Johannizza, the king of Wallachia, who had besieged Adrianople, gave himself no rest, for his petraries, of which he had many, cast stones night and day against the walls and towers, and damaed the walls and towers very greatly.
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Those in Adrianople made no delay in begging the emperor, for the love of God, to come to them as soon as he could; for sooth it was that if Johannizza, the King of Wallachia returned, they would all be killed or taken.
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and moreover that they.would (by agreeing to this truce) cause division between their enemies, viz. Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria and Theodore Lascaris who were now friends, and helped one another in the war.
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On the fifth day he came to the foot of the mountain of Wallachia, to a city called Euloi, which Johannizza had newly repeopled with his folk. And when the people of the land saw the host coming, they abandoned the city, and fled into the mountains.
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Their four battalions went to guard the foragers, and entered into a land rough and mountainous. And when their people had overrun the land, and wished to return, they found the defiles very well guarded. For the Wallachians of the country had assembled, and fought against them, and did them great hurt, both to men and horses.
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And they made agreement to meet at the end of the summer, in the month of October, with all their forces, in the meadow before the city of Adrianople, and make war against the King of Wallachia.
Memoirs or Chronicle of The Fourth Crusade and The Conquest of Constantinople
Faptele prezentate au avut loc intre 1205-1207, sper ca nu gresesc. Desigur ca bulgarii nici nu vor sa auda de asa ceva cum ca Asanesti ar fi fost romani scornid tot felul de 'argumente', e de ajuns sa va uitati pe Wikipedia, mai ales pe paginile de discutii.
Doar cateva fragmente:
And you must know that during this progress all the Greeks, on either side of the straits, came to the Emperor Alexius, to do his will and commandment, and did him fealty and homage as to their lord-all except John, who was King of Wallachia and Bulgaria. This John was a Wallachian, who had rebelled against. his father and uncle, and had warred against them for twenty years, and had won from them so much land that he had become a very wealthy king. -And be it known to you, that of the land lying on the west side of the Straits of St. George, he had conquered very nearly the half. This John did not come to do the will of the emperor, nor to submit himself to him.
..................................................
Then was the Emperor Baldwin minded to ride straight to Messinopolis, where the Emperor Alexius was. And the Greeks of Adrianople besought him, as their lord, to leave a garrison in their city because of Johannizza, King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, who ofttimes made war upon them.
..................................................
But do not go and ruin my land. Let us rather, if it so pleases you, march against Johannizz', the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, who holds a great part of the land wrongfully.
..................................................
And they stood in great need of succour, for Johannizza, the King of Wallachia, had mightily oppressed them with war. So Renier helped them right well, and held a great part of the land, and most of those who had sided with Johannizza, now turned to him. In those parts the war with Johannizza raged fiercely.
..................................................
They took envoys therefore privily, from all the cities in the land, and sent them to Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, who was still at war with them as he had been aforetime. And they told Johannizza they would make him emperor, and give themselves wholly to him, and slay all the Franks. So they swore that they would obey him as their lord, and he swore that he would defend them as though they were his own people. Such was the oath sworn.
..................................................
The Greeks, who had made oath to the King of Wallachia that they would kill and betray the Franks, betrayed them in that castle, and slaughtered many and took many captive
..................................................
Here they remained in very great doubt, for they misdoubted the Greeks who were in the city as much as those who were without, because the Greeks in the city had also taken part in the oath sworn to the King of Wallachia, and were bound to betray the Franks
..................................................
But they found the country raised against them, and were discomfited; and the Greeks took them, and afterwards handed them over to the King of Wallachia, who had their heads cut off.
..................................................
When the morning came, and full daylight, they rode as had been arranged, and came before Adrianople. And they found it very well defended, and saw the flags of Johannizza, King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, on the walls and towers; and the city was very strong and very rich, and very full of people.
..................................................
Johannizza, King of Wallachia, was coming to succour Adrianople with a very great host; for he brought with him Wallachians and Bulgarians, and full fourteen thousand Comans who had never been baptised.
..................................................
new chapter= JOHANNIZZA, KING OF WALLACHIA, COMES TO RELIEVE ADRIANOPLE
Then came tidings that Johannizza, King of Wallachia, was coming upon them to relieve the city. So they set their affairs in order, and it was arranged that Geoffry the Marshal, and Manasses of l'Isle should guard the camp, and that the Emperor Baldwin and all the remainder of the host should issue from the camp if so be that johanizza came and offered battle.
And Count Louis, who had been the first to attack, was wounded in two places full sorely; and the Comans and Wallachians began to invade our ranks; and the count had fallen, and one of his knights, whose name was John of Friaise, dismounted, and set him on his horse.
..................................................
And the Comans, with the Wallachians and Greeks, who were in full chace, ceased their pursuit. But these still galled our force with their bows and arrows, and the men of our force kept still with their faces turned towards them. Thus did both sides remain till nightfall, when the Comans and Wallachians began to retire.
..................................................
For Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, had come at the point of day before Adrianople with all his host, and found that we had departed, and so ridden after us till it was full day; and when he found us not, he was full of grief; and well was it that he found us not, for if he had found us we must all have been lost beyond recovery.
..................................................
And Johannizza, the King of Wallachia, had followed them all the day with all his powers, and encamped about two leaaues from them
..................................................
Johannizza, King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, had with him all his power, and he occupied the whole land; and the country, and the cities, and the castles held for him; and his Comans over-ran the land as far as Constantinople.
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Nor is that to be wondered at, for they had lost so much of the country, that outside Constantinople they only held Rodosto and Selymbria; the whole of the rest of the country being held by Johannizza, King of Wallachia and Bulgaria.
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When Pentecost had come, Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, had pretty well had his will of the land; and he could no longer hold his Comans to-ether, because they were unable to keep the field during the summer; so the Comans departed to their own country.
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At that time it happened that Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, with all his host, marched against the marquis, towards a city called Seres. And the marquis had set a strong garrison of his people in the city, for he had set there Hugh of Colemi, who was a very good knight, and hi,h in rank, and William of Arles, who was his marshal, and great part of his best men. And Johannizza, the King of Wallachia besieged them; nor had he been there long before he took the burgh by force. And at the taking of the burgh a great misfortune befell, for Hugh of Colemi was killed; he was struck through the eye.
In this manner was Seres surrendered, and Johannizza caused the besieged to come forth from the castle and encamp near him in the fields; and he treated them with much fair seeming, and sent them presents. So he kept them for three days, and then he lied and foreswore his promises; for he had them taken, and spoiled of their goods, and led away to Wallachia, naked, and unshod, and on foot. The poor and the mean people, who were of little worth, he sent into Hungary; and as for the others, he caused their heads to be cut off. Of such mortal treachery was the King of Wallachia guilty, as you have heard. Here'did the host suffer grievous loss, one of the most dolorous that ever it suffered. And Johannizza had the castle and city razed, and went on after the marquis.
Now let us leave speaking of Henry, the Regent of the empire, and speak of Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria/[b], who had taken Seres, as you have already heard, and killed by treachery those who had surrendered to him.
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Now [b]Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, though rich and of great possessions, never forgat his own interests, but raised a great force of Comans and Wallachians.
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Thierri of Tenremonde, who was chief and constable, made a foray on the fourth day before the feast of St. Mary Candlemas (30th January 1206); and he rode all night, having six score knights with him, and left Rusium with but a small garrison. When it was dawn, he came to a village where the Comans and Wallachians were encamped, and surprised them in such sort that those who were in the village were unaware of their coming. They killed a good many of the Comans and Wallachians, and captured some forty of their horses; and when they had done this execution, they turned back towards Rusium.
And on that very night the Comans and Wallachians had ridden forth to do us hurt; and there were some seven thousand of them. They came in the morning before Rusium, and were there a lono, space; and the garrison, which was but small, closed the gates, and mounted the walls; and the Comans and Wallachians turned back. They had not gone more than a league and a half from the city, when they met the company of the French under the command of Thierri of Tenremonde. So soon as the French saw them advancing, they formed into their four battalions, with intent to draw into Rusium in slow time; for they knew that if, by God's grace, they could come thither, they would then be in safety.
The Comans, and the Wallachians, and the Greeks of the land rode towards them, for they were in very great force. And they came upon the rear-guard, and began to harass it full sorely. Now the rear-guard was formed of the men of Thierri of Loos, who was seneschal, and had returned to Constantinople, and his brother Villain was now in command.
And the Comans and Wallachians and Greeks pressed them very hard, and wounded many of their horses. Loud were the cries and fierce the onslaught, so that by main force and pure distress they drove the rear-guard back on the battalion of Andrew of Urboise and John of Choisy; and in this manner the Franks retreated, suffering greatly.
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The Comans and Greeks and Wallachians retired, having done according to their will in the land, and won many good horses and good hawberks.
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Now when tidings came to Johannizza, King of Wallachia as to how his people had fared, he was very greatly rejoiced'; for they had killed or taken a very great part of the best men in the French host. So he sent throughout all his lands to collect as many people as he could, and raised a great host of Comans, and Greeks and Wallachians, and entered into Roumania.
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And Johannizza, the King of Wallachia, caused the city to be assaulted, and took it by force.
There was so great a slaughter of people killed, that it was a marvel. And Bègue of Fransures was taken before Johannizza, who had him killed incontinently, together with all, whether Greek or Latin, who were of any account; and all the meaner folk, and women and children, he caused to, be led away captive to Wallachia.
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The Greeks who had remained in the city, surrendered, and he incontinently caused them to be taken, small and great-save those who escaped-and led captive into Wallachia.
Near there was another citv called Panedor, which surrendered to him; and he caused it to be utterly destroyed, and the people to be led captive to Wallachia like the people of Rodosto. Afterwards he rode to the city of Heraclea, that lay by a good seaport, and belonged to the Venetians, who had left in it but a weak garrison; so he assaulted it, and took it by force. There aain was a mighty slaughter, and the remnant that escaped the slaughter he caused to be led captive to Wallachia, while the city itself he destroyed, as lie had destroyed the others.
..................................................
Then the Comans and Wallachians scoured the land up to the gates of Constantinople, where Henry the Regent then was, with as many men as he could command.
..................................................
ulted it, and took it by force. There the slaughter was so great, that there had been none such in any city where they had been. And you must know that all the castles and all the cities that surrendered to Johannizza under promise of safety were destroyed and rased to the ground, and the people led away captive to Wallachia in such manner as you have heard.
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Johanizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, who had sojourned long in Roumania, and wasted the country during the whole of Lent, and for a good while after Easter (2nd April 1206), now retired towards Adrianople and Demotica, and had it in mind to deal with those cities as he had dealt with the other cities of the land.
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Now when Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria, heard that the emperor had been crowned in Constantinople, and that Vemas had remained in the land of Adrianople and Demotica, he collected together as large a force as he could.
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And Johannizza, the King of Wallachia, who was in the land, when he heard that the emperor was coming, drew back into his own land.
Then came the Greeks of the land, and told him that Johanriizza, the King of Wallachia, was carrying off men and women and cattle
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The emperor had reassembled his men, who had gone to place in safe holding the booty taken at Veroi. And he marched day by day from Adrianople till he came to the land of Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria. They came to a city called Ferme, and took it, and entered in, and won much booty. They remained there for three days, and overran all the land, got very much spoil, and destroyed a city called Aquilo.
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Theodore Lascaris, who was warring against the Emperor Henry, took messengers and sent them to Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria.
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Now Johannizza had already engaged a great host of Comans, who were on their way to join his host; and had collected together as large a force of Wallachians and Bulgarians as ever he could.
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Then Johannizza left Wallachia with all his hosts, and with a great host of Comans who joined themselves to him, and entered Roumania.
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Johannizza, the king of Wallachia, who had besieged Adrianople, gave himself no rest, for his petraries, of which he had many, cast stones night and day against the walls and towers, and damaed the walls and towers very greatly.
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Those in Adrianople made no delay in begging the emperor, for the love of God, to come to them as soon as he could; for sooth it was that if Johannizza, the King of Wallachia returned, they would all be killed or taken.
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and moreover that they.would (by agreeing to this truce) cause division between their enemies, viz. Johannizza, the King of Wallachia and Bulgaria and Theodore Lascaris who were now friends, and helped one another in the war.
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On the fifth day he came to the foot of the mountain of Wallachia, to a city called Euloi, which Johannizza had newly repeopled with his folk. And when the people of the land saw the host coming, they abandoned the city, and fled into the mountains.
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Their four battalions went to guard the foragers, and entered into a land rough and mountainous. And when their people had overrun the land, and wished to return, they found the defiles very well guarded. For the Wallachians of the country had assembled, and fought against them, and did them great hurt, both to men and horses.
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And they made agreement to meet at the end of the summer, in the month of October, with all their forces, in the meadow before the city of Adrianople, and make war against the King of Wallachia.
Memoirs or Chronicle of The Fourth Crusade and The Conquest of Constantinople
Faptele prezentate au avut loc intre 1205-1207, sper ca nu gresesc. Desigur ca bulgarii nici nu vor sa auda de asa ceva cum ca Asanesti ar fi fost romani scornid tot felul de 'argumente', e de ajuns sa va uitati pe Wikipedia, mai ales pe paginile de discutii.
QUOTE(CzC @ May 16 2006, 11:01)
Faptele prezentate au avut loc intre 1205-1207, sper ca nu gresesc. Desigur ca bulgarii nici nu vor sa auda de asa ceva cum ca Asanesti ar fi fost romani scornid tot felul de 'argumente', e de ajuns sa va uitati pe Wikipedia, mai ales pe paginile de discutii.
Dar ce zici tu daca ar fi fost armâni si nu români ?
QUOTE(CzC @ May 16 2006, 10:01)
Faptele prezentate au avut loc intre 1205-1207, sper ca nu gresesc. Desigur ca bulgarii nici nu vor sa auda de asa ceva cum ca Asanesti ar fi fost romani scornid tot felul de 'argumente', e de ajuns sa va uitati pe Wikipedia, mai ales pe paginile de discutii.
Pe vremea cruciadelor Romania Orientala era inca destul de viguroasa. Chiar daca e un spatiu fragmentat, ea se intinde din Carpati pana inima Greciei (acea Valahie din Tesalia, am postat harta in paginile anterioare). Personal cred ca e gresita parerea lui K33 de a separa pe vremea aia armanii de romani. Li se spunea atunci tuturor vlahi, si au trebuit sa mai treaca multe secole de evolutie lingvistica separata pt ai privi ca doua entitati, sa le zic fortand termenul, distincte. Asanestii categoric au fost vlahi, cred ca doar istoricii bulgari au alta opinie referitor la asta (nici nu trebuie sa ne mire).
In acei ani orasele mari din sudul Balcanilor precum si zonele de coasta au populatie greaca, in rest slavii acoperind un teritoriu mult mai sudic decat raspandirea lor actuala. Vechea populatie romanica (romani , vlahi ziceti-le cum vreti) e impinsa si ea in sud (chiar si in inima Greciei) si in zonele muntoase si zic eu si la nord de Dunare.
Una peste alta Imperiul Bulgar era un stat multietnic, gasim acolo slavi , romani si greci. Ca spiritul turc le murise deja....
QUOTE(k33 @ May 16 2006, 11:11)
Dar ce zici tu daca ar fi fost armâni si nu români ?
Si aromanii ce sunt? Extraterestri? Sunt convins ca diferentele intre grupul de vlahi care sunt stramosii aromanilor de azi si intre grupul de vlahi care sunt stramosii romanilor de azi, pe la 1100-1200 nu era o mare diferenta. Si oricum Asanestii nu proveneau din zonele locuite de aromanii de mai tarziu. Ce parere aveti de ce spun bulgarii?
Talk:Kaloyan of Bulgaria
QUOTE(CzC @ May 16 2006, 10:35)
Si aromanii ce sunt? Extraterestri? Sunt convins ca diferentele intre grupul de vlahi care sunt stramosii aromanilor de azi si intre grupul de vlahi care sunt stramosii romanilor de azi, pe la 1100-1200 nu era o mare diferenta. Si oricum Asanestii nu proveneau din zonele locuite de aromanii de mai tarziu.
Cred ca pe intinderea a 30% din paginile topicului s-a tot aratat ca dilectele limbii romane provin dintr-o evolutie separata a aceleasi limbi (unii ii spun straromana). Sa spui ca in jurul anului 1000 vlahii nu erau unii si aceasi peste tot in Balcani e prea mult deja! Nu mai merita insistat pe asta!
QUOTE(k33 @ May 16 2006, 10:25)
Diogene, de ce autorul nu semneaza comentariul ? Are vreo jenă intelectuală ?
Azi stai prost cu logica. Da', pe tine de ce te cheama K33 ? Fiecare avem mici motive prozaice sa nu ne scriem numele intreg, adresa si tot numerarul de sub pernă.
Și, în legătură cu diversitatea genetică a românilor, oricât ar fi de divers un subsistem, el este unitar în raport cu altul față de care este în mai mare măsură diferit? Este o chestiune de altitudine de la care privești totul. Deci, ca să fie divers-divers se presupun anumite asemănări cu subsistemele vecine, din cele patru puncte cardinale.... Și nu fii așa sigur pe legăturile dintre genotip și fenotip.
QUOTE(Sirius @ May 16 2006, 11:35)
Personal cred ca e gresita parerea lui K33 de a separa pe vremea aia armanii de romani. Li se spunea atunci tuturor vlahi, si au trebuit sa mai treaca multe secole de evolutie lingvistica separata pt ai privi ca doua entitati, sa le zic fortand termenul, distincte. Asanestii categoric au fost vlahi, cred ca doar istoricii bulgari au alta opinie referitor la asta (nici nu trebuie sa ne mire).
Să zicem că părerea mea nu conteaza. Ce zici despre părerea aromanilor ?
Citeste cartea dlui Ioan M. Cardula, Istoria aromanilor macedoneni si ai sa gasesti acolo argumente decisive care separa pe români de armâni chiar la acea vreme.
QUOTE(CzC @ May 16 2006, 11:35)
Si aromanii ce sunt? Extraterestri? Sunt convins ca diferentele intre grupul de vlahi care sunt stramosii aromanilor de azi si intre grupul de vlahi care sunt stramosii romanilor de azi, pe la 1100-1200 nu era o mare diferenta. Si oricum Asanestii nu proveneau din zonele locuite de aromanii de mai tarziu. Ce parere aveti de ce spun bulgarii?
Talk:Kaloyan of Bulgaria
Talk:Kaloyan of Bulgaria
Nu mai fi asa de convins. Romanii si aromanii nu sunt unul si acelasi popor. Exista dovezi genetice evidente. Asemanarea dintre limbile celor doua popoare nu este nici pe departe un factor suficient pentru o afirmatie pripita de genul români = aromâni
Cred eu ca parodoxului originii romanilor i se gaseste cu greu o explicatie. Imperiul Roman rasaritean traieste cu 1000 de ani mai mult decat fratele lui din Apus (chit ca e debil spre sfarsitul vietii) si nu reuseste sa lase mostentire decat o firava populatie romanica imprastiata prin muntii Balcanilor. Romanitatea din Romania e exterioara acestui imperiu! Dobrogea nu poate fi luata in calcul pentru ca ea nu e o pastratoare a latinitatii! Iar ca sa incercam sa patrudem acest mister trebuie sa apelam la surse straine. Pentru ca doar istoricii straini isi ridica macar semne de intrebare. Noi o tinem pe a noastra cu o continuitate neabatuta, dar care daca ar putea fi adevarata ar fi total atipica. Sa cautam eventual explicatii atipice.....
QUOTE(Sirius @ May 15 2006, 11:05)
Hai sa ascultam si parea unui anume Liviu Anzulato din Suedia:
"
In aceasta situatie locuitorii ROMANIEI de la sud de Dunare care va reamintesc erau toti vorbitori de latina fiind cetateni ai noii Rome (indiferent de etnicitatea lor de origine) , au fost confruntati dupa navalirea slava cu doua alternative . Ori sa ramina pe loc si datorita inaintarii treptate (si nicidecum pasnice) a slavilor inspre sud sa fie dominati si apoi asimilati de acestia, fapt care s-a si petrecut de altfel mai putin in cele citeva enclave de latinitate anume aromanii a caror raspindire actuala arata care era teritoriul din sudul Dunarii unde se vorbea latina inainte de secolul VII, ori sa plece din calea navalitorilor. Dar unde se puteau ei refugia in relativa apropiere daca nu chiar acolo de unde slavii plecasera adica la nord de Dunare, in Dacia deci, unde exista probabil si un nucleu latin, respectiv urmasii colonistilor de dupa 106, atitia citi or fi fost 100000 - 200000. Si atunci timp de cel putin unul sau doua secole dupa navalirea slava in sudul Dunarii s-a petrecut un contrafenomen, neconsemnat in istorie pentra ca pe nimeni nu prea intereseaza soarta celor multi si napastuiti, respectiv o continua si tacuta refugiere a vobitorilor de latina in singurul loc unde se puteau refugia si pe care slavii il parasisera in incercarea lor de a cuceri Constantinopolul. http://www.iatp.md/dava/Dava9/amzulat_9/amzulat_9.html
"
In aceasta situatie locuitorii ROMANIEI de la sud de Dunare care va reamintesc erau toti vorbitori de latina fiind cetateni ai noii Rome (indiferent de etnicitatea lor de origine) , au fost confruntati dupa navalirea slava cu doua alternative . Ori sa ramina pe loc si datorita inaintarii treptate (si nicidecum pasnice) a slavilor inspre sud sa fie dominati si apoi asimilati de acestia, fapt care s-a si petrecut de altfel mai putin in cele citeva enclave de latinitate anume aromanii a caror raspindire actuala arata care era teritoriul din sudul Dunarii unde se vorbea latina inainte de secolul VII, ori sa plece din calea navalitorilor. Dar unde se puteau ei refugia in relativa apropiere daca nu chiar acolo de unde slavii plecasera adica la nord de Dunare, in Dacia deci, unde exista probabil si un nucleu latin, respectiv urmasii colonistilor de dupa 106, atitia citi or fi fost 100000 - 200000. Si atunci timp de cel putin unul sau doua secole dupa navalirea slava in sudul Dunarii s-a petrecut un contrafenomen, neconsemnat in istorie pentra ca pe nimeni nu prea intereseaza soarta celor multi si napastuiti, respectiv o continua si tacuta refugiere a vobitorilor de latina in singurul loc unde se puteau refugia si pe care slavii il parasisera in incercarea lor de a cuceri Constantinopolul. http://www.iatp.md/dava/Dava9/amzulat_9/amzulat_9.html
Autorii români de manuale de istorie evită să spună că toate relatările documentelor destul de numeroase despre teritoriul României dintre anii 600- 900, vorbesc de alte seminții decât românii. Probabil ca să nu tulbure mintea micului românaș pregătit pe bandă îi vorbesc acestuia de niște „popoare migratoare” (care de fapt au emigrat în spațiul nostru de azi și multe acolo au rămas) peste o anistorică populație băștinașă. În lucrările mai pretențioase se fac tot felul de interpretări sinuoase menite să arate că albul e negru și negrul este alb. De-aceea mi se va ierta poate, o tendință contrară, poate uneori nejustificată, de-a lua aceste relatări „tale-quale”, ca atare.
Sunt numeroase relatările despre deportările de populație din sudul Dunării în nord, îndeosebi sub hanul avar urmaș al lui Boian (din păcate neidentificat) și sub hanul bulgar Krum. Toate au același numitor comun:
- populația a fost forțată să plece în număr mare spre nord
- datorită diligenței împăraților bizantini acești oameni s-au întors, până la urmă în Imperiu, salvându-i onoarea (după părerea cronicarilor)..
Totuși îmi permit, de astă dată, câteva „interpretări”:
- unde s-au întors acele populații devreme ce Peninsula Balcanilor (munților) Romani, cum i-au zis ulterior turcii, a fost realmente ocupată de avari, bulgari și slavi? Până în vârful Peloponesului găsim slavinii. De fapt bizantinii nu mai aveau supremație miltară decât pe ape (de-aceea se spune că anumiți deportați ai lui Krum ar fi fost readuși la Constantinopol, de la gurile Dunării, cu corăbiile). Dar câți au rămas pe țărmurile mărilor și ale Dunării în așteptarea unor corăbii care ar fi venit doar după vreo 25 de ani?
- este un fapt istoric incontenstabil că avarii și bulgarii exercitau un control extrem de slab in părțile nordice ale imperiilor lor din bazinele Dunării de Mijloc și al Dunării de Jos. Nu ar fi fost normal ca după șocul inițial mulți romanici să meargă în bejenie spre nord, din proprie inițiativă, nu ca deportați, spre a evita acel control avar și bulgar? Probabil că au mai scăpat printre dinți câte-o „grijania mamii voastre de popi haini și nevolnici de la Constantinopol!”. Nu-i mai chema nici o dragoste spre sud.
Poate că tot dorința de-a scoate cămașa Imperiului cât mai onorabil i-a făcut pe cronicarii bizantini să nu-i pomenească pe vorbitorii de neolatină din nordul Dunării. Problema este că nu prea ințeleg unde ar fi rușinea de-a scrie astfel despre această zonă de influență constantinopolitană îndeosebi înainte de lovitura hună, dar și până la cea avară
QUOTE(k33 @ May 16 2006, 11:12)
Să zicem că părerea mea nu conteaza. Ce zici despre părerea aromanilor ?
Citeste cartea dlui Ioan M. Cardula, Istoria aromanilor macedoneni si ai sa gasesti acolo argumente decisive care separa pe români de armâni chiar la acea vreme.
Nu mai fi asa de convins. Romanii si aromanii nu sunt unul si acelasi popor. Exista dovezi genetice evidente. Asemanarea dintre limbile celor doua popoare nu este nici pe departe un factor suficient pentru o afirmatie pripita de genul români = aromâni
Citeste cartea dlui Ioan M. Cardula, Istoria aromanilor macedoneni si ai sa gasesti acolo argumente decisive care separa pe români de armâni chiar la acea vreme.
Nu mai fi asa de convins. Romanii si aromanii nu sunt unul si acelasi popor. Exista dovezi genetice evidente. Asemanarea dintre limbile celor doua popoare nu este nici pe departe un factor suficient pentru o afirmatie pripita de genul români = aromâni
1. Pana pun mana pe acea carte spun doar ca argumente decisive emite multa lume! Ramane sa stabilim care sunt mai decisive ca altele. Personal am facut efortul de a arata originiea comuna a celor doua grupuri de vobitori de dialecte romane. Nu mai repet acum.
2. Pai afroamericani din SUA si caucazienii de acolo nu se considera acelasi popor? Ca toate dovezile genetice afirma altceva! Sau daca cetateanul turc e mai degraba frate genetic cu grecul decat cu neamurile turce din Asia Centrala afirmam ca turc= grec e mai adevatata decat turc=turkmen (cetateanul din Turkmenistan) ?!
QUOTE(Diogene @ May 16 2006, 12:19)
Poate că tot dorința de-a scoate cămașa Imperiului cât mai onorabil i-a făcut pe cronicarii bizantini să nu-i pomenească pe vorbitorii de neolatină din nordul Dunării. Problema este că nu prea ințeleg unde ar fi rușinea de-a scrie astfel despre această zonă de influență constantinopolitană îndeosebi înainte de lovitura hună, dar și până la cea avară
Nu e vorba de rusine ci de orgoliu. Noua Roma nu trebuia sa fie decat una.Mă rog, voiam sa spun ca numai timizi si modesti nu erau bizantinii ...
QUOTE(Sirius @ May 16 2006, 12:14)
Noi o tinem pe a noastra cu o continuitate neabatuta, dar care daca ar putea fi adevarata ar fi total atipica. Sa cautam eventual explicatii atipice.....
Eu nu cred ca avem nevoie de o explicatie atipica pentru asemanarile uimitoare dintre limba romana si dialectele sard si calabrez. Dar daca are cineva o explicatie atipica referitoare la aceasta chestiune l'as ruga sa raspunda la urmatoarele intrebari:- de ce nu exista fenomene lingvistice asemanatoare in zonele geografic mai apropiate de Sardinia si Calabria ?
- admitand ca limba româna este unica mostenitoare a latinitatii orientale ca rezultat al latinizarii diferitelor popoarelor din imperiu, cum se explica faptul ca fenomenul nu este prezent la alte popoare balcanice care au avut parte de așazise/presupuse fenomene de latinizare ?
- de ce acest fenomen este prezent in zonele neinvecinate geografic cu România, spre exemplu dialectul Asturian al limbii spaniole ?
QUOTE(k33 @ May 16 2006, 12:12)
Să zicem că părerea mea nu conteaza. Ce zici despre părerea aromanilor ?
Citeste cartea dlui Ioan M. Cardula, Istoria aromanilor macedoneni si ai sa gasesti acolo argumente decisive care separa pe români de armâni chiar la acea vreme.
Nu mai fi asa de convins. Romanii si aromanii nu sunt unul si acelasi popor. Exista dovezi genetice evidente. Asemanarea dintre limbile celor doua popoare nu este nici pe departe un factor suficient pentru o afirmatie pripita de genul români = aromâni
Citeste cartea dlui Ioan M. Cardula, Istoria aromanilor macedoneni si ai sa gasesti acolo argumente decisive care separa pe români de armâni chiar la acea vreme.
Nu mai fi asa de convins. Romanii si aromanii nu sunt unul si acelasi popor. Exista dovezi genetice evidente. Asemanarea dintre limbile celor doua popoare nu este nici pe departe un factor suficient pentru o afirmatie pripita de genul români = aromâni
Ce-i acela un popor - ce este o etnie? Stiu ca multi aromâni se consideră nu daci ci macedoneni latinizați. După mine însă limba definește un popor, alături de alte chestii spirituale.
Dacă definești un popor ca o (sub) rasă, ca o populație genetică, te asigur că poporul român... nu există, asta înainte de-a fi diferit de cel macedo-român (sunt convins de asta, chiar dacă nu au apărut încă studiile de populații genetice riguroase, pe care le așteptăm; compară-i pe copii de la Grupul Forestier Cluj-Napoca cu cei la de la Liceul Unirea din Focșani).
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